CM 2 Episode #10 Scholé in a Charlotte Mason Education with Guest Brandy Vencel

CM 2 Episode #10 Scholé in a Charlotte Mason Education with Guest Brandy Vencel

Links and Resources:

Show Notes:

Schole is the approach of restful learning about what is true, good, and beautiful. How does this approach apply to a Charlotte Mason Education? Is it possible to practically make this a priority in our homes? You won’t want to miss this insightful episode with veteran Charlotte Mason expert, Brandy Vencel as she upacks the concept of Schole hopefully leaving you encouraged to think deep and explore big ideas.

Brandy Vencel is a Charlotte Mason homeschooling mom of four and the host of the popular podcast, Scholé Sisters. She is the author of Start Here: A Journey Through Charlotte Mason's 20 Principles, and The Afterthinkers Guide to Charlotte Mason's Home Education, both of which can be found on her blog at afterthoughtsblog.net. Brandy has a heart for serving classical and Charlotte Mason homeschooling moms through the Scholé Sistership, a community founded by the Scholé Sisters for moms seeking camaraderie around big ideas in education.

Leisure the Basis of Culture by Josef Pieper

Parent’s Review Article: Mother Culture by A

In Memoriam: A Tribute to Charlotte Mason

Mere Motherhood by Cindy Rollins

Start Here: A Journey Through Charlotte Mason’s Home Education

Show Transcript:

Julie –

Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show, a podcast dedicated to discussing Ms. Mason's philosophy, principles, and methods. It is our hope that each episode will leave you inspired and offer practical wisdom on how to provide this rich living education in your modern homeschool. So pull up a chair, we’re glad you’re here.

Today's episode of the Charlotte Mason show was brought to you by Medi-Share. Find out more about this affordable Christian alternative to traditional health insurance medishare.com.

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Hello everyone, welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm you host, Julie Ross, and today, I am here with, I feel like I need a drum roll, but I did not bring my daughter's drum set down here. I'm just gonna my computer. Anyway, yes! Brandy Vencel, I am so excited. Yes, that was my keyboard. Did it sound like a drum roll?

Brandi -

It was pretty good.

Julie -

Okay, maybe Vincent can put that drum in there. Anyway, yes, so, for those of you who are kind of new to the Charlotte Mason world, you may not have heard of Brandi Vencel. But if you've been around in these parts for a while, you have definitely heard of her. And I was telling her earlier, I started reading her blog, The Afterthoughts, way back in the day when, if you wanted to know how to homeschool, you had to read other people's blogs, because they're...now wait everyone. Might pass out. There was not Pinterest or Instagram, so there was no other way to know what to do. And so, I latched onto her blog, but you can still read it, and it is amazing.

And, she also has a wonderful podcast called The Scholé Sisters that I recommend you check out as well. And today we are talking about this concept of Scholé and I really am excited to kind of dive into that and kind of help people see how it relates to a Charlotte Mason education, cause I think it's so vital to have this component. So, Brandy, thank you for coming on today. It really means a lot to me.

Brandy -

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Julie -

Yeah, so tell our listeners kind of about you and your family and how you got started on this crazy homeschool journey.

B -

Oh, goodness. Well, I have four kids. We're in California, still under lockdown. Let's see, so my kids, I just graduated my first senior, and so, this coming...

J -

Doesn't that just feel wonderful? It's like, ah! There's a light at the end of the tunnel!

B -

So true.

J -

We're all gonna stay alive!

B -

Far away, so I'm a little sad.

J -

Oh, yeah.

B -

But it's fun. It's good for him, so I'm trying not to be a baby about it. But, so my other kids, this coming school year, they will be tenth grade, eighth grade and sixth grade. So we're getting up there in years. It's been...I've really enjoyed these teen years, which is...I don't know, I think I always expected to, but it's nice to know that it can actually happen.

J -

Yeah.

B -

Not that they're easy, but they're just fun because they're finally, they're, you know, they're having adult conversations in there and so...such interesting people, and just so neat. So. So we've been homeschooling since the very beginning, and I think I knew pretty early on. I don't think it was before we had children, but I knew...I think we knew within the first couple of years of having children that we wanted to homeschool. But what exactly that would look like was kind of a different story. And I think, in the beginning, I think I just thought I was gonna do school at home.

J -

Oh yeah. Me too girlfriend.

B -

Yeah, I didn't have any other way of thinking about it. But then, it's all about blogs, isn't it? That era. So, just hopping around on the internet.

J -

Yeah, now I'm like, I'm nursing little babies and toddlers. I need something to do. Oh, look, there's something called the internet.

B -

Yeah, it's kind of funny, cause when we first got married, you know, we didn't have the internet because...

J -

Oh yeah. Me neither.

B -

That was for fancy people. Eventually, we got an upgrade and so, yeah. So, I read a few...like, a, just a handful of little books on different types of, I don't know, approaches, philosophies, whatever. But, really, what happened was I found Cindy Rawlins' blog, and started reading her. And she introduced me to Charlotte Mason, convinced me that you could do it with boys. Cause that was big misunderstanding I had at the time, was that it was something was like, pink and lace and...

J -

Like Little Women or something. Yeah.

B -

Yeah. I had a son and I was like, my husband will kill me. And so, turns out, it's not a particularly girl or male thing, it just is for humans, and I didn't know hat at the beginning. And so I'm thankful for her. I figured if she could do it with eight boys, I could do it with one. So. And now I have two, but I mean, at the time, when I found out, I didn't even have two, so. Anyway. So, she introduced me to all things Charlotte Mason, and I feel like the rest is history. Cause I just took the plunge and my 27th birthday, my husband gave me all six volumes and...

J -

Aw, that's so precious.

B -

So, I'll read these...

J -

A little light reading, right?

B -

Yeah. I think I read Volume One that summer and then I just like, all I got out of it was that we should go outside. So we went outside... So. But I think I fell in love cause I saw, in her, all the best parts of my own education, and then all the things that were missing.

J -

Yeah. That's so true.

B -

She was just my hero, almost instantly.

J -

Yes. Well, you're definitely a natural teacher, which is one of the things I've always appreciated about your writing. And the fact that you can take something that's very kind of esoteric and that distracts sometimes. And, you know, even, like you said, reading the volumes, I'm like, I don't know what that means. Like, whatever, you know, now I can go back through and go, oh, wait, that's what that says, you know? But that's after years of reading it and playing it out in real life, right?

Yeah, that's so cool. So let's talk about this Scholé. So for those people who are not Greek scholars, what does that mean?

B -

Yeah. So it is a Greek word. It, okay, so, I think this word is really interesting because it means, in Greek, leisure, and there's this idea of freedom from waver. So like, to the Greek mind, there were two main states that a man could be in. He could be either at work or at rest. So, what's weird though, is for some reason we took our English word, school, from this word.

J -

Interesting. I didn't know that.

B -

And so, there's this, you know, Scholé is implying this freedom from work and this posture of being at rest, and yet, we're using it for school. When we think about the modern school's kind of weird.

J -

Like the antithesis of rest. It's more of the, get on the treadmill. Yeah. Uh huh.

B -

So, I looked it up one day and the word is only used one time in the New Testament. But even they really were using it to refer to a school. So, in Acts 19, where Paul, he is rejected by the Jews, at the synagogue, and so then he goes and starts ministering to the Gentiles. And it says that he went to the school of Tyrannus. This is Acts 19:9. And he was disputing daily at the school, and that word school, when you look it up in koine Greek, is scholé.

So, that's the one time it's used in the whole New Testament. But I found it interesting that even there, it was this place that you would go to have these deep discussions and kind of argue about theology and all this kinds of things.

J -

Doesn't that just sound lovely right now? Like, I would give anything to be able, A, like see somebody. But B, be able to have a discussion about deep things with them.

B -

For sure. I know. Oh. So, scholé is, well, Scholé Sisters, we took our name from Joseph Peeper. So, I mentioned him...Cindy Rawlins. And she, back in the day, was hosting book clubs. And we would do these book clubs where each person had a blog. And so, she would say what we were reading that week, and then we would all write a post, and then we would read each other's posts. And that's how we did book clubs before... you know, really like, Facebook or anything.

J -

Yeah.

B -

I think it existed. But we weren't really using it the way we use it now. So, anyway, so Joseph Peeper wrote this book called Leisure, The Basis of Culture, and Cindy assigned that book. And so he was like our first introduction to scholé. So he was this post-Hitler German philosopher, and I feel like, what we see in Volume Six with Charlotte Mason, where she is kind of horrified by the German philosophy of the classroom and is blaming World War One on that. I kinda see the same thing in him, where he was saying that Germany had adopted this total work mentality. Everything was done for the sake of material gain for the sake of the economy. And he is really trying to introduce scholé into the German culture as a reaction against this German mentality, which I think is now our mentality.

J -

I was gonna say that. Like, yeah, it's all, what can we teach you so that you can go and have a job, not like learning for the delight that knowledge is. For it's own sake.

B -

Totally. Yeah. So, he introduced scholé in his book and that's where we started getting into what this really means. And he...it can sound fancy, but he has these two words. He kinda breaks it into two words. And they're both Latin words. So, one is rachio, and one is Intelius. And the really...it's like the two parts that we think of with learning. So, one part is the thing that we think of as more active. Or we...you might even think of it as work. It's the part where we're like reading the hard book and trying to figure out what it means, or doing a hard math problem.

J -

I was fixing to say, math. Yeah.

B -

Exactly. Or trying to, you know, we're diagraming a difficult sentence or whatever. Like, all that kinda stuff is it's hard, but we're not necessarily, especially in a Charlotte Mason education, we're not necessarily doing that to get a job. We're doing it cause these are human things, right? But then, the intellectual side is this more meditative thing. And I think it's what makes something distinctly scholé, is that it's this posture of rest. So, you have this active part, but then there's this passive part, where you're kind of thinking and you're letting everything sink in. There's this time of quiet reflection. I mean, I even think narration falls into that, really. Because it's like the first step of contemplation is to make sure you really got it all. Get in. And so, I always think of that is like the first step.

J -

Well, also, too, I think of like, masterly inactivity too.

B -

Oh, for sure. Yes.

J -

Yes. Tying in there.

B -

Yes. So being back.

J -

Letting time for those ideas to grow, right?

B -

Exactly.

J -

Yes. But ya can't do that when you're constantly filled...days are filled up with a million different things. And it's interesting, like, in this quarantine time, right? I think we do have a lot more leisure time than we've ever had before. It's just, what are you gonna fill that time with? And I think, so we hear that word leisure, right? And I think of like, a guy on the golf course, and wearing a pink shirt, like, here in the South? You know? Like, that's what...we're like, oh, I got some leisure time. You know? Like that's what someone's...they're gonna go out in their boat. But, that's not what this means. So how is that, how would you describe the difference there?

B -

I think really, it's purpose. I mean, I think you can have scholé moments while you're doing anything, really. I mean, because you can be doing the dishes and be thinking through the different ideas that you've taken in today, or some sermon that you listened to, or whatever. Some great podcast from Julie Ross, whatever. And so, you know, I mean, I think we...it doesn't have to be that just because the Greeks thought work and scholé were completely related, that we necessarily have to view it that way. But I do think, they really were setting aside time for the purpose of developing, really like, human potential. The potential of the mind, and the soul, and the character, and all those kinds of things. And they had designated time for that. I think when people went to, you know, the school of Tyrannus...I mean, they were there to pursue ideas. They weren't really there for any other purpose. And so...

J -

Yeah, I think that's a good point. That, if the intentionality of it. And I think with all the time that we have now it can be very tempting to go, oh, well I have all kinds of...you know, at first I think everyone during the quarantine are like, I'm gonna learn a new foreign language. Or, I'm gonna learn some new, like, sewing skill. And we're all like, filled with these wonderful things and goals, and then, it's really easy just to turn on Netflix and, veg out on Instagram. And, like, we can...I think it's even kinda harder. Like, our days aren't full of work, per se, where we wouldn't have time to kind of pursue some of the intellectual pursuits. But it's so full of so many other distractions.

B -

I really had to redo our schedule and make sure I wasn't living this just...I don't know what I'd call it, other than maybe, it's like twaddle time, really. Where everything was just evolving into the least common denominator there. So...

J -

So, how do you kind of add this to your schedule?

B -

Well, I mean... I do think that...actually, you bringing up apps, and social media and all that kinda stuff, is a great place to start, because it's often that we can look at something like scholé, and say, well I don't really have time for reading or studying or thinking or whatever, but then, you know, your iPod sends you a report of how many hours of screen time you had.

J -

My gosh! Why does it do that to us? I think it's like some cruel torture some days. I'm like, I know I spent ten hours on it. I needed to yesterday, okay?

B -

So true. But I did, I mean, I remember one time, Pam Barnhill basically told me, don't tell me that you don't have time to read if you can tell me what's going on with your favorite tv show. Good point.

J -

Yes. But I feel like our lives can fill up with what we allow into them, right? When we're not intentional or we're like, this is the time we're going to set aside to do whatever, then everything else can kind of fill in in the gaps. It's not like we're having to like, carve out a whole different life to add this in. When you add it in the other things find their time. Yeah.

B -

Yes. So true. So, I feel as if it's kind of that classic story of the rocks and the pebbles. Have you ever heard that?

J -

Yes. Oh my, yes! Like, I remember, youth camp or something, they served us that. Yes.

B -

Yes. Exactly. But I'm like, it really is so true, that if you put in the most important things, then, everything else really will fit in around it. I think sometimes at the end of the day we have to decide, who do we really wanna be as a person. And then, who do we really wanna be collectively as a family. And then we have to put those landmarks into our day or into our week. But these are the, these are the lines we will not cross. Like, I have a friend, she was... we've invited her girls over for dinner or something, and she was saying, oh well this is our family... I mean, you know, they have certain nights that are reserved for just their family, where they're not gonna let anything else intrude on that. And they did that because they just got, you know, too busy. And it was the only way they could control it because they loved to say yes to everything. And so.

J -

Yeah. That's hard. Especially when you have lots of kids. But I love that purpose. So, but, I think the key to making it a purpose is to realize why it should be. So, why would someone want to make this kind of pursuit of what's good and beautiful and this rich knowledge a part of their homeschooling?

B -

Well, I mean, there's a lot of practical reasons to do that, cause I really...I always think about, for example, Charlotte Mason's...she didn't write it, but the article on the Parent's Review on Mother Culture. And so she...we were only told that the person was, A, like we're only given her first initial, so I don't know you know, who she was or what her story was. But really, she was talking about how we have these children and then if we're not careful, they grow up but we don't, because we're just living in this present. We're stressed out and we're just doing the next thing and the next...you know, the next task is being practical as far as managing the home and managing the children. And her whole argument, really, in that article, is that our children, you know if I have a baby at 24, when he is 24, I need to offer him... of a 48-year-old. And not someone who stayed basically the same as a 24-year-old cause I was too busy to read a book, think a thought, have an idea. You know? And so, I think there is this practical thing of like, if I don't keep maturing, then the people who are dependent on me...I'm not able to offer them the things that they need as they are learning and growing. Cause kids are gonna learn and grow.

J -

Right. That's their nature. Yes.

B -

You know. And then I think of another really practical thing, at least for me, was when I had a bunch of really little kids. You probably experienced this too. It was like...I don't even wanna call it overwhelming. It was just like my world shrunk down so small that I lost all perspective. And I put so much pressure on these little people for everything in our life to go right and be this certain way, because it was my whole life. You know, so I felt like, reading, actually engaging in some of these more human things. It was like, it brought into my perspective and helped me not really make an idol of my family in a roundabout way. Like, I would never have said, oh my family is everything. But, literally, my family was everything. Cause it was all I had time for in those early years. I had, like I had my oldest and I'm homeschooling him. And then I had three kids under the age of four.

J -

Yeah, and then you can't really go anywhere. And this is before, when you could go places, but you can't, because you have too many diapers and too many naps, and yeah.

B -

Yeah, five hours to buckle everybody in... And you know, and so it was like, just opening up my world helped me take the pressure off of my family to be a few things that they shouldn't be expected to be and do for me, I think.

J -

Yes. For sure.

B - But...we don't really get into the bigger thing of, this is the really human thing. God designed us to learn and to grow and to know and to mature as a person, and have our spirit's mature. You know, in relationship with Him. And you know, if we don't set aside time for that, then it's probably not gonna happen. I mean, it usually doesn't happen...

J -

It doesn't happen, right. Right, yeah. The default is not for those things. And also, too, like, with the having older children. Like, it kinda just hit me, a couple years ago, it's like, someday they're not gonna be here anymore, in my house. What kind of person do I wanna be? And, like, yeah. Like, I still need to be growing and feeding my mind, because there's so many... could be me, right? Like they would be talking to, right? So, I wanna be an interesting person, right? Yes.

B -

Yeah, so true. So true. Well, in the whole world, I feel like, it takes on a different hue when you learn to become interested in all these things. You know, and, like quarantine is less boring if you have an active...so, like, spiritual and intellectual life.

J -

Oh, for sure.

B -

Cause it can't go anywhere, but you know, we have learned to enjoy reading books or doing a nature journal in your back yard, or whatever it is that you're doing. Those things don't go away just because, you know, the economy got bad or there's a pandemic. We actually can have the...what did Charlotte Mason call it? The fullness of living, right?

J -

I never could say that word right...magnanimity.

B -

Magnanimity. Yes.

J -

Did I say it right? Yes.

B -

Yes. It's true. I mean, we look at that, we admire that in people. Like, I always think of G.K. Chesterton.

J -

Oh for sure, yeah.

B -

Just, I'm like, he was just this huge, jolly person, and just seemed to connect with everybody. And he married Charlotte Mason's assistant. I don't know if you that.

J -

I did not know that! That's so fun. I love all these little connections.

B -

So cool. And he actually wrote for the Parent's Review a couple times. Anyway, I think of him as being, you know, so magnanimous, all this stuff, but it's like, that doesn't happen by accident. And there's a reason why he stands out, I think, among other people, is because, you know, he lived...he managed to be interested in everything. And I remember reading an essay written by him, and he's on a train. He was bored for about five minutes and he decides to write an essay about what he found in his pocket.

J -

Is it the chalk one?

B -

Yep. And I just... seriously? This man is never bored. I mean, he's so interested in the world, that, like, what's in my pocket? Let's think about that.

J -

Like, and it's a very deep essay on chalk.

B -

It is!

J -

Yes.

B -

It really is. But I think, beyond that, we're just so, we're so limited because our world is just so shallow. Like, the regular world we encounter is just so shallow. And so, you know, if we don't try to get out of it, then we just get sucked in. We all do. I mean, none of us are superior to that. It's too powerful.

J -

Well, that kind of relates to one of the things that I had kind of bookmarked earlier today as I was thinking about our talk. But this comes from in the book that you put together, of the tributes that people wrote after Charlotte Mason passed away. And this one, in particular, is called The Parent's Union School and It's Founder, by Mrs. Franklin. But in there, it says, it's a delightful thing about the school of yours that the scholars love their books. I know, because every post brings me a letter from someone to say so. And besides, I can tell by the way you answer your examination questions when all the papers reach, we often say, this is a very happy week for me. I'm happy because your papers show me that you have had a delightful term's work and that you love knowledge. I think that a joyful thing to be said about anybody that he loves knowledge. There are many interesting and delightful things to be known, and the person who loves knowledge cannot be very well be dull indoors and out of doors. There are a thousand interesting things to know and to know better. There is a saying of King Alfred's that I like to apply to our school. I have found a door, he says, this is just what I hope your school is to you. A door opening into a great palace of art and knowledge in which there are many chambers, all opening into gardens or field paths, forests or hills. One shaper entered through a beautiful gothic archway, it's labeled Bible knowledge, and there the scholar finds goodness as well as knowledge, as indeed, he does in many other of the fair chambers. You see that doorway with much curious lettering? History is within and that is, I think, an especially delightful chamber. But it would take too long to investigate all these pleasant places, and indeed, you could label a good many of the doorways from the headings on your term's progress. But you'll remember the school is only a door to let you in the Godly house of knowledge.

B -

I had forgotten about that section. I love that.

J -

It's a perfect picture, right? Like, that's what this is doing for us and our children, right? We're providing that door that leads to this beautiful palace, like...that's really cool.




Today's episode is brought to you by A Gentle Feast. A Gentle Feast is a complete curriculum for grades one through twelve, that is family-centered, inspired by Ms. Mason's programs and philosophy, and rooted in books, beauty, and Biblical truth. You can find out how smooth and easy days are closer than you think at AGentleFeast.com.




You know, we talk about scholé for us as moms. How does it affect what we're doing... how our children's education is structured?

B -

I think it gives us a paradigm, really, for how we're approaching them. Because if we start to see ourselves as human and our own learning as a human thing, I think that helps us switch gears, because we're all coming from... I mean, even if you went to private school, I really think you're still coming from the same modern mentality. Really, what we're doing, is trying to get good grades. We can get into college. We can get a good job, so you can, you know... it's just like... welcome to the economy sort of.

J -

Yes. When I first started speaking about charlotte Mason, almost every time I gave a talk, and now I include this question at the end of my talk, because that just saves people from coming up at the end to ask this question, was, well, if I teach my children with this method, how will I know if they're gonna get a good SAT score and get into college? I'm like, oh, so how old is your child? And they'd be like, four. I mean, every time. I know it's like, wow, yeah. There's just so much more to this. I would really encourage you to read some of her writings.

B -

It's true. But we're so trained that way, right? That that's the most important thing. And that's the test of our ability as homeschoolers, and then they become teenagers and you realize how little control you already have.

J -

Yes.

B -

And so...

J -

That's why people that are...have teenagers, don't ask that question. It's the people who...preschoolers who ask that question. Cause they still think they can control all of that, right?

B -

Right. So true. Yes.

J -

So, let's talk about someone who's like, okay, I think we have not a good job of kind of embracing this restful approach to learning. Where do I start?

B -

Well, I think...I do think that there is...we have to ask ourselves the question, what's tripping us up? Because if it's all this scheduling stuff we were talking about before, where you're just... I mean, even during lockdown, you can be overscheduled. You can have one zillion things on Zoom.

J -

Oh yes. Yeah.

B -

You see those little, four little kids that have turned into zombies in our neighborhood because they were just forced into Zoom one too many times. So, you know, I mean, they're...so, those kinds of things, I think, have to be dealt with and if we're just completely overscheduled, then we have to back that up. I don't think there's...if the path to schole is at least one part designated time, and there's no time left, then we're gonna have...if we really want it, we're gonna have to pursue it through cutting activities and things like that. But then there's, I mean there's other things. Like, I know we went through a time where, really, I would say schole wasn't happening cause had gone to some bad habits with like, sibling squabbles and stuff. And, so we had time. We had time at home. We weren't overscheduled. But there was no peace or time to think, because there was battling going on at home all the time.

J -

Yes. You took the pencil that I wanted. I wanted...that looks just like the pencil you...yeah, I mean, it's like, what? Why are we arguing about this?

B -

Exactly. Like the only thing pettier than Facebook are two people fighting over a pencil. That's pretty much it.

J -

You could even make a meme of that.

B -

So, you know, so it's like, we've reached a whole new low around here. And, so, you know, so, for, then, in that instance, my quickest way back was to actually deal with those people and, I mean, really, I think what I started doing was such do-overs. The second someone was, you know, speaking to someone else disrespectfully, we just had to do it over. And we had to do it over until we rolled our eyes, and then we never wanted to have to do a do-over again, so we decided to comply. But, you know, so, I, so there's different things, but I do think that even when we're trying to do a Charlotte Mason education, we can just put two much. Like, if one thing...of scholé is time to think. And I do think time to think happens, like, once you get pretty good at your handicraft and you're zoomin' along. Or if you're in your garden, or whatever. I mean, I don't think it has to be...

J -

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

B -

...like, you know, you're sitting on the couch and doing nothing, staring into space. But I mean, you know, it could feel like we have to do all this stuff and so then school's like nineteen hours long, every day, and there's never a break, and we're always trying to check the next box, and there's no...so I feel like, we just have to turn it down a notch. And I think the best thing I ever did was start with definite start times and definite ending times for different activities. And that's, I mean, we couldn't do that in the early days cause I had a newborn, first year we did school, and so there was no definite anything.

J -

Right.

B -

But, when they're older, you can do that. Usually. And then, having just some bumpers around the day, I feel like, helped us. Cause it helped us be more disciplined in school too, I mean, what did Charlotte Mason say? You learn but, like, there's not...everything can't happen in just any old time. You'll learn the...

J -

Right. There's a time for everything. Right.

B -

Yeah. And so, for me, I felt like...you know, I really didn't get disciplined about controlling our school day until I was giving myself definite times, because that gave me the discipline I needed to make sure that things were actually happening and they weren't just frittering time away, staring, because some of my children like to stare, apparently.

J -

So, you'll totally laugh at this. When I first read her volumes, and, it's like, okay, I'm gonna try to stop doing school at home and jump in. Like, I tried to do all the subjects every day of the week.

B -

Oh, my word.

J -

Like, I thought we had to do like all fifteen subjects every day. I'm like, what in the world! Like, this is not beautiful! Like, this is terrible! And then I realized, like, oh, you don't do every subject every day and oh, like these are supposed to be short lessons. Oh! Then you can actually have time for that restful idea growing time in your afternoon. Like, outside. Oh, okay.

B -

You know, I'll tell you what I did with my older kids. So, they're reading on their own, but I would actually put, in their little spreadsheets, in parenthesis, you know, 45 or...

J -

Oh, I still do that.

B -

Yeah.

J -

And I give them all a timer. Yeah.

B -

Yes. Well, and then I would have them report back to me. You know, how long did this...my assignment actually take you? And so, we do that for the first two, three weeks of school, because then I can figure out if I totally went overboard or didn't do enough, or whatever. Cause a couple times I underdid...I didn't realize how fast someone read and I underdid it. But it, you know, it, I realized, in junior high, my poor oldest child, guinea pig person, he just, I did so much that stressed him out. Because I just was like, well this is how many pages we need to read this week and so this is what we're doing. And he always rose to the occasion. But I really think he had high blood pressure. I mean, cause he just, you know, I asked him to do it and so he did it, and when I had him start timing things, I thought, oh my goodness, what am I doing to this poor person. So, I really tried to repent and give him a more schole experience. Because, it turns out, that, I think scholé...I don't wanna say it's not quantity, but I think it's more, it's more quality than it is quantity.

J -

You might not get through as many books, you mean, by quantity?

B -

Right. I think so, I mean, we...especially if it's like, if I realize that my child is just a slower reader and can't get through this, you know?

J -

Well, even if they're quick readers, I mean, Charlotte Mason talks about the value of reading slowly.

B -

Yes.

J -

Yes.

B -

Yes. And you know, and making sure there's actually time for narration, so you know, it wasn't just 45 minutes of reading. It needed to be including narration and all those different things. But, ultimately, I feel like, if we can get our arms around the idea that this is a human thing and we're developing all of our little human potentials that they have. Their abilities to speak and read and be interesting persons and love all these different things. When, I feel like, when that becomes the priority, then some of the other stuff gets easier because we can view everything through, you know, what's being the obstacle to us having them? And then we start to ask the question, you know, what's standing between us and this thing?

J -

Well, it's kind of an interesting dichotomy, cause you mentioned the word, discipline in the same sentence you talked about restful. And people would...you wouldn't think those two go together. Right? Like, discipline sounds hard and harsh and, you're being driven not being restful. But at the same time, if you, like you say, if you don't have those habits, again, with Charlotte Mason's principles go together, right? That you don't have that restful spirit or that, you know, that education's an atmosphere, too, you don't have that restful atmosphere.

B -

So true.

J -

Yeah.

B -

So true. I wanna feel like that was one of the huge things Charlotte Mason taught me early on, was just, even what discipline really was. Because I had always thought discipline was how we respond when someone's naughty. You know? I didn't realize, I mean, that, like, not that that's not a thing. But that she was backing up way before that and trying to be proactive and, but, the discipline was almost this form and structure that she was giving to life. And once I embraced that...I mean, that was a very freeing, restful sort of thing too. It really is...it's...I think it's hard on our environment because we're often told, you know, like, the most authentic thing is, you know, basically chaos. Like, you know, just giving in to your impulses and letting your day and also these different things. And, but, you know, cleaning all that up...cause I can be sort of like a fly by the seat of your pants person.

J -

Okay.

B -

But my oldest child cannot be that person. Like...

J -

Funny how that works, isn't it?

B -

...could be that person. And I was so...I told my husband this the other day, I'm like, he was the discipline in my life where the Lord taught me that there is a different way to be and that's okay. And it was so good, because children really do thrive on habits and structure and all that kinda stuff, and I think I probably wouldn't have offered my children that. At least, not without a lot of hardship.

J -

Yes. But it's not like a dictatoring way, because it still has that restful approach, which I love about the Charlotte Mason...the way that she writes and talks about education. Because it's these routines, kind of like having these...I kind of say, like, these like, markers, in our day, but it's not like we're ruled by this structure and we have to do this and fit in this box. Cause that's not restful. That feels stressful. It's the opposite. So talk a little bit about this idea of truth, beauty, and goodness, and how this all relates to scholé and Charlotte Mason and what we're doing in our homes on a daily basis. It can seem very, like, nebulous, I guess. It's like, no...what does that practically look like?

B -

Well, I mean, I really think we can't really apprehend those things if we're not in a state of rest. I don't know, I mean, I think maybe this is just something I've experienced, but I just, I have had a number of times in my life where people are saying, you know, like, you really should read poetry. So, I'd go sit down and try to read poetry and I'm like, okay, buddy, read this. And it was...the problem was new, right? Like, my, I just, my to-do list is running and I'm going a million miles an hour and all this stuff and it was like, you have to slow down in order to be able to read something like that. Or to read, you know, even like, epic poetry. I really...things like Beowulf and that kind of stuff. But I have to have been...I just, I can't be in a frantic mood in order to really get anything out of that.

J -

Oh yeah, no.

B -

And so I mean, I feel like scholé is the key, because apprehending truth, it takes exposure to great ideas, of course, but then it also takes time to let all that sink in and have a relationship with something like beauty, takes time and attention, and attention doesn't happen under stress, you know? And goodness, I feel like that's something we learn. I feel like we learn to admire goodness through a Charlotte Mason education and the way it's laid out. But that's really because it's so, it's so human. It's...you know, Charlotte Mason never mentions the word scholé, but I feel like she's lived it in so many ways.

J -

Right! Oh, especially when you read In Memorium, and look at her schedule of how she organized her days. She was an extremely self-disciplined woman, which was how she was able to accomplish all these amazing things, I think. And have these big ideas, right? Yeah.

B -

Right. Yeah. So, I don't know, for me, I think of it as like, the three transcendentals are, they're something that we cannot attain if...because they have to be sought for their own sakes. I mean, that's another part of scholé, really, is that it's not, it's not materialistic, it's not seeking its own. It's not trying to make money or have a product at the end or any of that kinda stuff. I mean...and so, it...just being able to sit back and appreciate these things that God has given us for their own sake. You know, the soul has to be at rest to do that, and a side effect of living in the modern world is that we're gonna have to fight it. And our fight for it, you know our habit, because it...everything is noisy and everything's a distraction and it just, I think it's super hard.

J -

Well, I think of like, so, we just started watching the Pride and Prejudice mini-series again because, really, you can't watch that too much in your lifetime. And, you know, but I was thinking about like, you know, how after dinner, what do they do every night? Somebody reads aloud some poetry. Or someone sings a song. And plays the piano, and it's like, what are we doing after dinner? Like, we're watching tv or, you know, like, running around to fifty activities you know? Where it would have been, in a way, much easier, for them to appreciate these beautiful things because that was what was constantly put in front of them.

B -

Yeah.

J -

But we have to really kind of seek it out. And I love what Cindy Rawlins talks about. I think it's in Mere Motherhood. But she was talking about how one of the things she loves about morning time is like these little grains of sand. So, you don't have to have fifteen hours to focus on the things that are beautiful and good, you know? And true. That these little nuggets that we can get in our days add up to a whole lifetime.

B -

That's so true. I...well even, I've had someone ask me before, you know, how many...how do you read so many books aloud? And it's like, it's not...it's just a habit. I mean, just the...we read a little bit after breakfast. Not for very long. We read a little bit after lunch, most days, not for very long. But I was looking...I'm reading a book right now that I am not in love with, but we're going to continue anyway.

J -

Talking persevering, yes.

B -

We're gonna finish this. But it's Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee in King...

J -

Oh yes. I have a hard time with that too.

B -

Yeah. Yeah. But it's super...yeah.

J -

I have a hard time with Twain...I'm much more like the British lit kinda gal, yeah.

B -

Yes. And I think we have read his Jane, I'm sorry, Joan of Arc, and...

J -

I don't think I've ever read that.

B -

That super good!

J -

Oh! Okay.

B -

And so, I didn't realize that that was his, I guess, his best book, and it's all.... It's excellent. I mean...

J -

Sorry at all the Mark Twain fans.

B -

Yeah, really. I apologize. So. Maybe he's an acquired taste, I don't know. But he just...anyway. So we're reading it, but I was thinking like, oh, it's gonna be such a slog, you know, and I just...but we're gonna do it. We're gonna do it. We're not gonna quit. And then I was looking at the book and I'm like, oh, we're almost halfway done. It's just a little bit at a time, right? And I mean I actually think it's good for us to read it. I mean, what are the...he just makes me uncomfortable, because he's like, very anti-Catholic and he's very like, he's very modern in that he's very snobby about anybody who came before him. But I thought, you know, we can talk to our children about prejudices...

J -

That's one of the best things about homeschooling is getting to have those conversations, yeah.

B -

Right. But I'm like, what better way to do it than to see it embodied in the way that you actually really don't like it.

J -

We do not wanna be like this.

B -

Exactly.

J -

We can all agree. Thank you. Yeah, and I, you know, I thought like that when we read, when I read Pilgrim's Progress to my kids. I mean, they were little, you know? And Charlotte Mason says to read it form one kids and I'm like, okay lady, like, whatever you say. I'm just gonna take your word on this, cause this sounds nuts. I don't have any idea what I just read and I'm an adult with a college degree, you know? But we've just read a page. One page. Every day. The whole entire year. But they made amazing connections with it. And then, I mean, this was like five years ago and my son, we were watching Lord of the Rings. And he's like, you know, it's the part where he's talking about, like, the burden that he has to carry you know? And my son just looks at me, he's like, so it's kinda like Christian, because he had that burden that he couldn't... and I'm like, what? You know? But it's like, okay, and that sometimes there was like, little ideas in these little tiny mustard seeds that take years to grow and you have no idea until something like that happens, then you're like, oh, they were actually paying attention?

B -

I know. I know. That's why...I love it when moms realize they don't have to be discouraged. Just, even if a child seems like they're rejecting something. Because it's amazing to me. Actually I was talking with some people about the end of the school year. And it was a group of ladies and there are about four or five of us, and most of them said that they had a child who reported that their favorite book of the year was one they had, you know, whined and complained about the whole time.

J -

Oh...my child still talks about this book that she read that I like, forced her to read when she was five. Like, that...tears. For like three days, yeah. It was about like the American Revolution, it was like this little easy reader book. I cannot remember, I can picture it in my head. And then, we're getting ready to move, so we're like packing boxes, and she's like, oh, make sure you bring my brother's something, I don't remember what it was called. And I'm like, wait, what? And she's like, yeah, you remember? That's my favorite book I ever read. I'm like, what? Okay. Let me remind you what happened back when you were five.

B -

And the tears and the...

J -

Yes. Every day. For a week. You cried. But...

B -

That's hilarious.

J -

You know, like, I think of that as the beauty, too, like a persevering through something that's difficult. You do develop an affection, you know? We all made it through childbirth or like, we still love our kids. Like...

B -

We're gonna do this again!

J -

Yes! Exactly. My husband's like, what? No. But this is been really great. This has been so encouraging. Do you have any kind of final thoughts on this whole concept? I know it's been a huge conversation here, but...

B -

Well, I guess, if we wanna offer encouragement here at the end, I would just say, if you feel like you don't have this, then I would really try to make...I get a piece of paper. And actually do a brain... where you write down all the reasons why, possibly, you don't have this. And try to figure out what it is. Like, is it your schedule? Or is it your habits? Or, because, I really think there are so many different barriers that it's easier to say, you should have this, but I think a lot of us do long for a rich, intellectual life and a rich, spiritual life, and the question is more, what's stopping us? You know? So.

J -

Right. Yeah. That's a really good idea.

B -

And then, that way, you're designing your action plan in a way that actually fits. You are home and you are family and what's going on, you know, cause it's easy for me to say, well, all you need to do is schedule. But if, really, it's just that, you know, Johnny and Susie are fighting all the time, the thing that isn't gonna solve that problem.

J -

Right. Yes. Or, you know, I mean, I've talked to some people they're like, I didn't really have that great of an education. I don't even know where to start. Like, I don't know what to read or start...you know? To fill my time with. You know? I mean, yeah, it's not a one-size fit all for sure. Just kinda look at those barriers. Yeah, that's a great idea.

B -

Those people will say, don't be afraid to read children's books, you know?

J -

Oh. Tell me more about that.

B -

Well, I just feel like, in many ways, and I don't feel like I had a terrible education, but I feel like my real education started with first grade and I was just reading hard books and hard curriculum out loud to my kids. And I just, I look back and I think, there are so many adult books that I read now, that I feel like I understand, because of the books that I was reading a lot in elementary school. And those were not adult books. They were little kid books.

J -

Yeah.

B -

And so, you know, it's funny. I had somebody asking me about economics books, cause I kind of like to read those. And...

J -

Wow.

B -

I think they were a little bit offended when I said that I thought reading Whatever Happened to Penny Candy was a good place to start. Cause... and I'm like that is the best little book... on like inflation I have ever seen.

J -

Yeah, I learned so much. I was like, oh, that's how that works.

B -

Yeah, so I, I don't know, I feel like we get into our heads that we have to read, you know, like, fancy books or books written for grownups, or whatever, and I mean, not every kid's book is worth reading as an adult. The best ones really are.

J -

That's what C. S. Lewis says, right?

B -

Yeah.

J -

Go back and read some fairy tales. Yeah.

B -

Well, it's like if we feel like our childhood education wasn't good, well, we can go get that first, right? So, you go read the kid books that you missed out on and there's no shame in that. So.

J -

Yeah, and reading them with your kids...like, learning...having that posture of being a learner with them, as well. Not like, I'm the fountainhead of all information. Please listen to me. But all they're, no, I'm really interested in this, let's find out more. Together. It's like such a beautiful way to kind of approach homeschooling. So, I love that. So tell our listeners a little bit more about your scholé sisterhood and then other ways they can connect with you.

B -

Okay, sure. Well, at Scholé Sisters, we often say we offer camaraderie. So, we're attempting to offer support and encouragement for people who want to pursue scholé. And specifically, moms who are homeschooling. We feel like we give them a place to discuss and ask questions and even if they get into some of the nitty-gritty stuff of homeschooling when things aren't going right. So all of our little...like we have a little membership. And all of our classes and courses, all those things are designed to help us go further and deeper in our lane. For example, some of the people have...were getting interested in Russian literature, so when they...

J -

Oh. Bless them.

B -

...were gonna... it was like... Yeah! So we're gonna have a guy come in and do kind of like the content lecture in July, and so he teaches Russian literature at the university level, and he's just gonna spend one day for about an hour or so, talking to our people and helping them, you know, understand and be better readers of those books and that kinda thing. So, we feel like lately, our emphasis is switching to the contemplation side. Like it's really easy to put out another book list and be excited about more reading. And not that we don't do that, cause we're all kinda book junkies, but, we really want to be sure that we're working on more of the thought side. So it doesn't just become another form of consumerism.

J -

Yes. I read 500 books this year. Yeah. Right.

B -

It's like the did you read any?...

J -

But I love that too, that like, that community...like, I feel like, you know, gosh, how long as it been, five years ago? We started a Charlotte Mason book club in my hotel, and our first resource we used was your, what's it called, 20 principle...yes! Yes! And it was amazing. But having people that we can have a discussion with about her volumes, you know, even though I've been using this for a long time and reading the... like, have it, like, I got so much more out of listening to other people's contemplations and narrations, you know, thanks as well. You know, that having that community component, I think is super helpful.

B -

Oh, it's so true. Oh, yes. I teach Charlotte Mason boot camp a few times a year. And I feel really selfish because i feel like I'm the one that gets the most benefit out of it.

J -

Oh yes!

B -

Because there are all these people who are reading... and I get to read all their ideas. And I'm like, those...it's just so exciting. And I, you know, it's funny, it never gets old. But i think that's because humans are different, right? So, those persons coming to her from...coming to Charlotte Mason from a different perspective, and so when you hear their thoughts, it's like, oh, these are new thoughts. I mean they're, in many ways, they're the same thoughts, but they're new and fresh because they're coming from the new and fresh person and then it's just so...I just love it.

J -

Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. So, that's the scholé sisterhood, and then, where else can people connect with you?

B -

Well, after thoughts is the other place I am. So, Scholé Sisters can be found at scholesisters.com. And then, Afterthoughts is at afterthoughtsblog.net. And that is where...well, that's where I sell my study guides like the one that you guys used. But, that's where I blog, still, though not as frequently as I used to because, turns out, sometimes having big kids is more time consuming than having little kids.

J -

Yeah. Yeah. So, I always end asking someone if they have a Charlotte Mason quote, a favorite or one that relates to what we've talked about they would like to share.

B -

Oh, I think I do, actually. I...okay, from volume one, page 174, this is one of my favorites. I was just talking to someone about this the other day. But it's, gives your child a single valuable idea and you have done more for his education than if you had laid upon his mind the burden of bushels of information. And I actually feel like that's so perfect, because what you were just saying about how you were just reading one page of Pilgrim's Progress. And, this reminds me of that, that we often think more is better. And if something's going wrong, we don't have enough.

J -

Oh yes! What else can I buy to fix this? Yes!

B -

I love that image of the power of a single valuable idea and, I mean, she's talking about children, but I feel like we're the same. And we often...even if we accept that for kids, we often think, well what I need is more, more, more.

J -

Yes.

B -

Or different, or whatever. And I just think reading a really good book at one page a day is probably more valuable than reading, you know, a pile of bad ones all the time. So, I just love that...she just has such an emphasis on soul-feeding really and understanding ideas as this valuable nourishment in a way that I just haven't seen before. So, I love that about her.

J -

And I tell people that too when they're like, I can never read through Charlotte Mason's writings. I'm like, just read one page a day.

B -

Yep.

J -

Like, it'll work for you too. Just a little bit, and a little idea. And she has another book too, like, A Morning Without a Single Idea is a Wasted Morning, or something like that, that I remember...morning time too, that like...and I love that idea that this is our goal because that really...I don't know about you, but it's like, I can breathe. Like, I can do that. We can have this one single valuable idea that we're going to like, yes! And all this other stuff that we feel like we have to cram in, cause she included it in her programs, right? Even if it doesn't really fit for us. Yeah.

B -

Even when she did it, she often didn't do it year after year after year.

J -

Well, thank you so much for joining me today, this has been such a beautiful enriching conversation, as I knew it would be because I love how deep you think about all these different things. So, thank you for joining us.

B -

It was so nice to talk to you. So, thank you for having me on.




Julie -

Thank you for joining us today on the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I would love to meet you in person. All of the Great Homeschool Conventions have been rescheduled to 2021. Go to GreatHomeschoolConventions.com to find a convention near you.

But you don't have to wait until 2021 to experience the amazing speakers and vendors at the Great Homeschool Conventions. They now offer an online convention that you can find on GreatHomeschoolConventions.com.

Also, if you would like the show notes for today's episode, go to homeschooling.mom. If you would take a moment to subscribe to this podcast in iTunes and leave a review, I would greatly appreciate it. It helps get the word out about this podcast to our audience.

Thank for joining me today. Until next time, may your home be filled with books, beauty, and Biblical Truth.


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