CM 2 Episode #12 Role of the Teacher with Guest Shay Kemp
Links and Resources:
Show Notes:
Meet Julie :
Julie H Ross believes that every child needs a feast of living ideas to grow intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. As a former school teacher, Curriculum Coordinator, and Assistant Director of a Homeschool Academy, Julie Ross has worked with hundreds of students and parents over the past 20 years. She has also been homeschooling her own five children for over a decade. Julie Ross developed the Charlotte Mason curriculum, A Gentle Feast, to provide parents with the tools and resources needed to provide a rich and abundant educational feast full of books, beauty, and Biblical truth. Julie lives in South Carolina. When she’s not busy homeschooling, reading children’s books, hiking, or writing curriculum, you can find her taking a nap.
Photo:
Meet Shay:
Shay is a homeschooling mom of 5 who loves enjoying the learning journey with her children and encouraging others in their paths of faith, parenting and homeschooling. She believes that the best conversations happen when you are comfortable on the front porch and blogs from there at passersbywelcome.com.
Picture-
Resources:
School Education by Charlotte Mason
A Philosophy of Education by Charlotte Mason
Parents and Children by Charlotte Mason
Quote:
“The Teacher’s part it, in the first place, to see what is to be done, to look over the work of the day in advance and see what mental discipline, as well as what vital knowledge, this and that lesson afford; and then to set such questions and such tasks as shall give full scope to his pupil’s mental activity.” (School Education, pp 180-181)
"[W]e perceive that the great work of education is to inspire children with vitalising ideas as to every relation of life, every department of knowledge, every subject of thought; and to give deliberate care to the formation of those habits of the good life which are the outcome of vitalising ideas. In this great work we seek and assuredly find the cooperation of the Divine Spirit, whom we recognise, in a sense rather new to modern thought, as the supreme Educator of mankind in things that have been called secular, fully as much as in those that have been called sacred." (Towards a Philosophy of Education, pg. 173)
“Let this be the mother's key to the whole of the education of each boy and each girl; not of her children; the Divine Spirit does not work with nouns of multitude, but with each single child. Because He is infinite, the whole world is not too great a school for this indefatigable Teacher, and because He is infinite, He is able to give the whole of his infinite attention for the whole time to each one of his multitudinous pupils. We do not sufficiently rejoice in the wealth that the infinite nature of our God brings to each of us.” (Parents and Children, pg. 273)
Verse:
“It is God who works in us to will and to act according to his good purpose.”
(NKJ)
Show Transcript:
CM EP 12
Julie -
Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show. A podcast dedicated to discussing Ms. Mason's philosophy, principles, and methods. It is our hope that each episode will leave you inspired, and offer practical wisdom on how to provide this rich living education in your modern homeschool. So pull up a chair, we're glad you're here.
Today's episode of the Charlotte Mason Show is brought to you by Medi-Share. Find out more about this affordable Christian alternative to traditional health insurance at MediShare.com.
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Hello everyone, welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and today, I am back with my friend, Shay Kemp. Hey Shay.
Shay -
Hey Julie. Hey everybody.
Julie -
Alright, I know you all just love ‘me and Shay’ time. I love ‘me and Shay’ time, so. What we sit and talk about when we're not recording. So, today, we're gonna be talking about the role of the teacher in a Charlotte Mason education, and then we'll record in a little bit, another one, on the role of the student. And I think it's really important to define these two aspects of a Charlotte Mason education. When you can know all about living books or how to do a picture study, but if you don't understand this kind of main philosophical difference between how she approached the world of teacher and the world of student versus traditional kind of education, like, you're really gonna be missing a huge part of what she was trying to accomplish and what you wanna accomplish in your home, don't ya think?
Shay -
Right, I think it's the answer to the question, what do I do with these books. Which is what I get. You know.
Julie -
Osmosis. Just put them under their pillow. They'll learn everything. I promise.
Shay -
You put em in a stack on the table.
Julie -
Oh yes. Yes. Yeah. Uh-huh.
Shay -
So, that's what I get, the question of, so, what do I do with these books. And I think that's really...the answer to that is her explanation of what the role of a teacher is. And it's very much more simple than anything I got in teacher training and four years of college.
Julie -
Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's like if we would have learned how to do this kind... college probably would have been, what, a semester?
Shay -
Yes. And we would be so much more prepared. And also, I think, this understanding, this role of the teacher in a Charlotte Mason education, can really give parents confidence that say, I'm not sure that I can do this, because I don't have any teacher training. You know, Shay, you...
Julie -
Oh yeah, I get that all the time. Right. I'm like, I use nothing that I learned in college in home educating, writing this curriculum, starting school. It's like, none of it actually applied.
Shay -
There's one class that I feel like was super helpful, was the development of a child. And that one class was helpful cause I think I've used that through the years to like, gauge what I should offer my children, which is exactly what Charlotte Mason talks about. But, you can literally do a google search, home...
Julie -
And save yourself, like, forty thousand dollars.
Shay -
Yes. No student loans. No waste of time in class. I mean, I just think that's, yeah, that is the one thing that I mean, maybe was helpful. But other than that, this is very confidence building for parents.
Julie -
Yes. And I think, you know, like, with all of the COVID situation, there's lots of people who are considering homeschooling and I've heard that too, like, I don't think I can homeschool my kids cause I don't have a teaching degree. I wouldn't know how to teach them. And so, if you're one of those people, listening to this episode, I hope this will kind of show you that what you're thinking of as teaching, versus what Charlotte Mason was saying the role of a teacher is, are two vastly different things. And this is actually extremely doable. She believed in home education. I mean, that's her first volume is called that. And she, you know, first taught governesses to go teach in homes, and then parents adapted her, like she really believed that home was the best place for children to learn. So her philosophy really stems from making that something that's doable. You know, a governess would be teaching multiple aged children all at one time. And you can't do that if you have to have an hour-long lecture on every subject and be an expert in every field. You can't teach that many. And that's what we're doing at home, right. You're teaching multiple ages whether you're the parent or a governess, or you know.
So, her philosophy is adapted to knowing that that's what's gonna happen, right? But also, what's the best way the children learn and then developing asking that question, and then developing, okay, well then, what does that look like for how you teach them. Rather than, okay, let's figure out how we can design a teacher program, right? And have something that's teacher-driven and then hope the students learn. Or adapted. Or keep changing it. Because the students actually aren't learning this way, right? I was like a school teacher, I'm like, okay. Now, this year, we're gonna learn a whole new set of standards and a whole new textbook and all these new philosophies are coming out and we're gonna redo everything all over again.
Shay -
Right. And it's the intimidation factor of looking at, you know, a child's education and all these subjects and you just get intimidated because you think well I can't understand it. How do I teach ‘em to write, how do I teach ‘em history, and how do I teach ‘em... and so, when you erase that and you say, okay, but you don't have to know all those things. And there is a better way, because that is not me being an expert in a topic does not guarantee that my child or any child will learn anything from me as an expert. You know?
Julie -
Yeah. And we know lots of experts that are going.
Shay -
Yes. It doesn't mean that I can learn from them. It just means they learn something. So, how do I help my children understand that it is their education? And that's really, that's really about the basis of it.
Julie -
Yeah. So let's jump in here. So what did she say...like what were here expectations for what a teacher would be doing?
Shay -
Well, this is a quote from School Education, and this is what she says in that volume. The teacher's part is, in the first place, to see what is to be done to look over the work of the day in advance, and see what little discipline, as well as what vital knowledge, this and that lesson afford, and then to set such questions and such tasks as shall give full scope to his pupil's mental activity.
Julie -
That's like, the longest sentence ever. So, what does that...??? She loved her some semicolons, for sure. So.
Shay -
Yes. Sometimes I have to read em like, wait, what? When I'm reading the volumes, I have to go back and say, okay, I need to process that first half of that sentence.
Julie -
Yeah, yeah, let's break that sentence down a little bit. So, what is she saying?
Shay -
So, I think, the first part, okay, is to look over the work of the day in advance. Like...
Julie -
Yes. Okay, it's super important. Yes.
Shay -
Yes. And for me, that's...I do that daily absolutely, but used to, as contrast, I used to spend a lot of time figuring out what we were going to talk about that week and how do I present this to my children in a way that would be interesting or fun or something like that. Right? I spent a lot of time doing that.
Julie -
Oh yeah. Every Sunday, I would spend hours on Pinterest...
Shay -
Me too!
Julie -
Printing out cute little activities and little, like, pick lapbook thingies they were gonna make and...yes. And then, you know, it's like, wait, who's doing all the work here?
Shay -
Yes! And then, what would make me so mad, is you sit down in front of your kids like, oh, my gosh, today we're gonna learn about plants and I have one, we can do this and this and then the kids are looking at you like, that sounds like the most...
J -
Like, I don't wanna do that. Yeah.
S -
I laminated this whole... and you don't even wanna play. Not that I don't do some of that every once in a while now. Of course, I did some of that, but, now for me, what it looks like, is Sunday night, I look and see what we're covering during the week in each form. And also morning time. I make quick notes, and I find where we are in the next book. Normally, I pre-read a little ahead and certain things that I know, you know, I need to. And then, that's it. And I see what... and I see what mental discipline we might need to deal with that week. And what vital knowledge we're gonna cover. It takes less than thirty minutes.
J -
Oh yeah. For me to plan out my whole week. For sure.
S -
Yes. For the whole week.
J -
Yeah. A lot of people ask that. They're like, do I have to read every book that my child is gonna read independently. And I say no. It helps to skim and say okay, this week they're reading these chapters in this book. It's about Thomas Jefferson here, and, you know, like I can kind of get an idea what they're gonna be talking about, but I don't need to, like, I mean, if you want to, that's fantastic. It's a great way to build your own knowledge, right? But it's not a requirement, you know? And if you don't, like, as they get older, I would say, you don't have to read every literature book that your high schooler is gonna read. There’re these wonderful things called Spark Notes...C-H-M-O-O-P. Don't tell your child, but they give you summaries of every chapter. So you can know what's going on. Looking at narrations and go, I don't think that's what happened in that book. And that child will think, oh my gosh, my mom is really on top of this like, I better pay more attention. But you haven't actually read it, so.
S -
And it's not realistic to think, if you have children in several forms, that you're going to know, be it, have the time, to read all that. Now, I do like to read ahead some in the summer, but I'm a big reader, so, I usually read, like literature. But I haven't read, if I read it in form, like one two, but if it's like a new book we're not really familiar with, I may say, oh, I'll take a little time and read this. But it's just a big difference from, I mean, even my friends who were teachers, it's the time that they spend trying to prepare lessons.
J -
Oh, my gosh. So much time. Because it's the...in a traditional school setting, it's the teacher's job to take the material and break it down in a way that A, it's gonna interest the children, and B, it's gonna make it easy for them to quickly be able to regurgitate that information.
S -
Yes. Yes. And so, thus, it is near on the children because it is not a self-education. They're not, they don't have to take it on themselves.
J -
And I think it's important to make that distinction, because, I think a lot of people are like, oh, well, Charlotte Mason, that must mean, it's like there's no education but self-education. So that must mean it's child-led, so if my kid wants to be a Lego master builder, I should throw out every book that we were gonna read this year and we're gonna spend the whole year doing everything with Legos. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, that's not what she's saying at all, right? It's very structured. There's a kind of...there's...you know, great living books, there's...this age...they should be reading these kind of books. There's requirements, but it's not...it's the teacher's job to set that work. But it's not the teacher's job to be like the mama bird and digest it all first, and then spit it back out into the baby bird's mouth. That's the difference.
S -
And I have literally seen, I had a conversation with a mom couple a weeks ago and I was kind of talking about this with her, and I could see the lightbulb bo on and like, you could see the burden come off of her back. Like, she's like, what? Are you kidding? And I think that's really what...I mean, that was Charlotte Mason's heart, is that we understood that we are to trust in the Divine Life that is going to...that we cooperate with, which is her words, that we're cooperating with that Divine Life in our children that they, as we do, what she says here, look it over, think about what vital knowledge we're gonna cover, set the questions and tasks. Like, okay, you're gonna need to...this is your lab that you're gonna do this week. These are the books in your...the chapters in your literature you're gonna read. This is the narration I'm requiring of you this week. And then we let them do the work, because it's their brain that needs to be educated.
J -
Right. And she says, also, in School Education, you may bring a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink. What I complain of is that we do not bring our horse to the water. We give him miserable little textbooks, near compendiums of facts, which he is to learn off and say and produce at an examination. Or we give him various knowledge in the form of warm dilutes, prepared by his teacher with perhaps some grains of living thought to the gallant, and all the time we had books. Books teeming with ideas fresh from the minds of thinkers upon every subject to which we can introduce children. So, our job as teachers is to actually bring them to the water, the thing that's living, that has sustenance, right? That's these living books, not... textbooks are not knowledge like I've said, that we've kind of prepared for them. But lead them to these ideas that we've talked about in some of our other episodes.
S -
And what I think is so amazing is that when you trust these methods, when you trust this, what you find out is that your children really do develop the muscle of doing the work on their own. They really do develop that, and it maybe not even in a schoolbook. Yesterday, I actually, I have a rise a ninth grader and I was just last week kinda making some plans for next year. What do I wanna do for her for current events? You know? She's... well, I came home yesterday and she's like, Mom, look at this project that I'm doing. And she has gotten a notebook with her rainbow markers, cause that's the kinda girl she is, and she is writing down current events that have happened in this year, cause she feels like it's a pretty important year. She...
J -
Oh, yeah, the, let me tell you what's been going...like. We want a good year for current events, 2020s just slammed us all.
S -
I mean, so, I'm making that point, and this is your current event curriculum. This is awesome. She said, well, I just thought it would be really interesting, I need this to look back on later on and... and so my plan is, is that, she understands, not because we've had some deep conversation about it, but because you, as the teacher, laid this feast before her that this is on her to learn this stuff. She's not coming to me and saying, you know, hey, set this up for me. You know? And so, that muscle does get built up over time.
J -
Yeah, I like the, obviously, I like the metaphor of the feast, cause that's why my curriculum's called A Gentle Feast, but it's this picture of, okay, as a teacher, I'm preparing the beautiful dishes, our meals that are gonna nourish them with these rich ideas. It's my job to prepare it and lay it out. Like, I'm gonna bring them to that water, I'm gonna bring them to the table, to this feast, and it's their job to be that kind of eclectic and take what they need from this and that, and that's what they're gonna make their own, I cannot force it down their throat. And so, I feel like, the traditional kind of role of the teacher is to do that and like she was saying here, like, for an examination, we just want them to be able to learn it off, say it, and produce. But it's not becoming part of their person, and that's the difference, I feel like, between that and a kind of a traditional teacher role here. She also says, in A Philosophy of Education, we perceive that the great work of education is to inspire children with vitalizing ideas as to every relation of life. Every department of knowledge, every subject of thought, and to give deliberate care to the formation of those habits, the good life, which are the outcome of vitalizing ideas in this great work we seek and assuredly find the cooperation of the Divine Spirit to be recognized in the sense, rather new to the modern thought as the Supreme Educator of mankind and things that have been called secular fully as much in those things that have been called sacred.
I don't know, do you wanna jump down to kind of the, where she talks about the role of the Divine Spirit and our collaboration with that? I mean, that's huge.
S -
It's so huge, yeah.
J -
That's the role of the teacher, yeah.
S -
It really is. I can read this other quote if you'd like for me to. This is Parents and Children. And she says, let this be the mother's key to the whole of the education of each boy and each girl. Not of her children, the Divine Spirit does not work with nouns of multitude, but with each single child, because he is infinite, the whole world is not too great a school for this ??? teacher, and because he is infinite, he is able to give the whole of his infinite attention for the whole time to each one of his multitudinous pupils. We do not sufficiently rejoice in the wealth that the infinite nature of our God brings to each of us.
I love that so much, I feel like that gives me so much peace to know that this is not on my shoulders. And I am to do my part in cooperation, like that quote you had read, of the Divine Spirit, but as I cooperate, I have a much more powerful educator than I...my finite mind could be.
J -
Yeah. Yeah. On my own, like, we're in trouble people.
S -
Yes. Exactly. And this is the panic that I hear from parents that I really am speaking to right now, right? Like, there is no way that I can possibly do this. There is no way that I can possibly figure out how to teach...I mean, we're not even talking about every kid. We're just talking about like, the maybe the three or four kids in my house. Like, how I'm I gonna ??? that, you know? And so then you read this and you say, wow, we can really rejoice in this wealth. By what she talks about.
J -
Yeah, and, you know, the Holy Spirit really is the Supreme Educator like she says. And she's saying, you know, there's no such thing as sacred and secular. That God instructs in all things, in all sciences, and in all knowledge. Not just about the Bible or something like that. We can't separate those out. Like, it's a part of all their education, you know, and our job as the teacher is to cooperate with the Holy Spirit by giving them these living ideas by, it says, instructing...how was the wording? Deliberate care to the formation of the habits of the good life. So, we talked about that before, with Education is a Discipline, so if you missed that one, in the show notes, we can link to that episode too. But, you know, it's not just what books are you gonna use for history? Like, our role as a teacher is looking at them as a person and going, okay, we really need to work on the habit of attention this year. Or, you know, working on the quality of our handwriting, focusing on details. Or you know, or on, you know, just the habit of getting up at a certain time. Right?
S -
It's that role of inspirer that she talks about, with the great work of education, is to inspire children with vitalizing ideas. And to every relation of life, that in itself, that one sentence is like, okay, this is my job. My job is to inspire them and how do I do that? With vitalizing ideas. And when do I do that? In every relation, whether it's science or history or literature. My role as a teacher is to consider, does this book, does this thing that we're involved in, bring vitalizing ideas? Does it bring inspiration? And even in that, we're not carrying on that on our own. I mean, there's such a beautiful...I mean, we're standing on the shoulders of so many women and men who have written these great books, who have read all these great books, and have said, hey, this is a great book with full of living ideas for this topic at this time in your child's life. So, you know, it's not like you're showing up at the library saying oh, can you tell me what section is for botany, or whatever, you know?
J -
They'd be like, what does that mean? Botany? We don't have any books about plants in here.
S -
That's one of the things that really also helps me take a deep breath, is that I do not have to figure all this out by myself. I mean, you know, we obviously use A Gentle Feast and this will be our fourth year of doing that, but even before then, I used lots of book lists that were ??? great living books that are already out there, you know you don't have to figure this out all on your own.
J -
Right. Right. Yeah. But that would be the job of the teacher, right? To get those books, and it's real amazing, say they would have her program, so she would tell them what books to use, so that's not, like, a bad thing to ask someone else who's done all this research and read all these books to give...kind of guide you in that, right? And then, you know, look over the work for the week or for the day, to think about your children and think about what habits that you also need to work on to, and you know, partner with the Holy Spirit in cultivating these ideas in your children. And then, kind of, let's go break down what this actually looks like on a day. Like, okay, today we're gonna do a lesson on George Washington crossing the Delaware River. I don't know... okay, right? So, we have our little...we got this great living book someone told us to use. We got our lesson, we got our kid in front of us, what am I gonna do?
S -
Okay, so, this is what we do in my house. So, the first thing I would do is...now I would make sure what you would do ahead of time, that I have this book as a living book. It's full of living ideas, right? So, I'm not pulling out a textbook about George Washington crossing the Delaware, but you know, I was like, one or two lines of text...
J -
On what day, and, yeah. Right, time, yeah.
S -
That's sort of the head of time. So I have this living book. The next thing I'm gonna do is give a short review of what we talked about last week. And, most of the time, this takes very little, like, you could even say, last week we talked about a great leader and he was also a man we talked about, he was on a coin. I bet you remember who it is. And most of the time with my children, that is all it takes for them to go. They need, like, what I think of it is, pushing the memory button. What does it take to push your memory button? And then they can go, oh, yeah, that's right, it was George Washington. And we just do some short review of the last time we talked. Because most of the time, it's been a couple days. Cause we don't do, you know...
J -
Yeah, Or even like, last week. I mean, yeah.
S -
Yeah. It's been a week. So, I find that especially in, like, the Old Testament readings that we do, cause we... once a week, and sometimes we have to do a little digging to get our memory button pushed, as, oh, wait a minute, what king was that? And what judge, or whatever, so...
J -
yeah, especially with the names. Like the, like our island stories. Like that too, cause like, all the kings have so many names. Like, they all share the same name, which is really confusing.
S -
Right. And I even have mine do, like a little sketch sometimes in their...we have these little blank books that we use. So at the end of a lesson I'll have them do, not like their narration, but a little, like a memory sketch. And when they can pull that up and say, oh, that's right, I drew a noose and a gallows, and so this means that this person, you know, was hanged in 1600 for this prudent thing, that's what I remember. Right? So, that's the next step.
J -
Yeah, so it's not you preparing some lecture on what happened last time, right? You are just kind of, like you said, just giving a word, a phrase, or even asking the question, do you remember last time we talked about George Washington going up to the fort near Pittsburg? What happened? Like just asking them, and that's can be a great thing too, because if you're getting them to narrate all over again. So they might have narrated that story last week, right? But now they're gonna narrate it to you again. Did they still remember what happened last week? Yes. And then, if they can narrate to you, then it's their own. They know it.
S -
Right. And this is one thing I love also, about combining forms, because I love that my older forms will bring up a, you know, maybe, mention something, and then my younger one, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, and they are, you know, they're you're kind of getting all these levels in together, you know? And I just, I love that. So, that's the next step.
Julie -
Today's episode is brought to you by A Gentle Feast. A Gentle Feast is a complete curriculum for grades one through twelve that is family centered, inspired by Ms. Mason's programs and philosophy, and rooted in books, beauty, and Biblical truth. You can find out how smooth and easy days are closer than you think at AGentleFeast.com.
S -
So, after we do a quick little review, then we're going to give a few words about what we're gonna read. So, this is the building anticipation part that I love. And so, I love this part because you know, I'll say, especially my read alouds. Like we're reading The Green Ember right now.
J -
I think that's a really good play. It's not like you're gonna save till, like, your junior in high school, like, ah, today in your economics book, you get to learn about, like, I don't even know an economics term. Right, like.... ??? They really think you've lost your mind, right? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is more for, I think, for the lessons that you're reading to them.
S -
Yes. This is like a group lesson, right, exactly. This is like a group lesson. And I think, in living...if you're using a living book for older children, those books sort of do that on their own.
J -
Yes. And they develop that skill themselves over time.
S -
Yes. Exactly...
J -
For so long that...oh, I'm supposed to remember what I did last time before I start reading, and yeah.
S -
And my kids will read their narrations from the time before, a lot of times, where they're like, oh, I'll go back and read the narration and then kinda... so yeah, this definitely is more like, we're talking about in a group, we're doing something as a family, we're reading our fables or, I don't know. Whatever. You know. Yeah. So, and then after we do that, we're just gonna read a few pages, whatever...I live by that timer. It is, like, my best friend, because the time can get away from me very easily when I'm doing stuff as a group. So, we set the timer and sometimes we get a little more read, sometimes a little less, but we read those few pages or sections, whatever we have to do. And then after we do that, we narrate. And it seems like it's too simple to work.
J -
Yes. Yes. And it's like, okay, well, what about, like, should I ask all these questions? And where are the activities that are gonna help them? Like, if we're gonna throw a hands-on learner, shouldn't we go make a, you know, a paper Mache model of the Delaware River now? Or a painting? Yes. Of George Washington, like, you know. And that all sounds really wonderful, maybe. It kinda makes me wanna break out in hives, but, again, that's not that your kid can't do that on their own. Like, in the afternoon, if they're inspired and wanna make a paper Mache model, like, go for it, right? Or, they're playing outside and they're pretending, oh, I'm gonna be George Washington and I'm gonna, like, stand in this boat, right? You know? That's fantastic, but you as the teacher, do not have to come up with activity. It's not needed to make them interested or to understand the material. They're interested because they're engaged in a living book that's exciting, and they learn it because they're narrating it and they carry on. You do not need to add anything else.
S -
No, it's the material provision that is my job. Like, I provide the materials. Like, I mean, we have plenty of art supplies, we have Legos, we have blocks, we have outdoors, we have ropes they can make things with. We have, you know, a hammer and nails and lots of wood. We have all kinds of stuff. And I provide those materials. That's there for them. But when I come...okay, now, we read about this. Now, we're gonna take this and we're gonna build this and we're gonna do this. Invariably, there's like the, oh gosh. Like I'm the only person expressing... you know.
J -
And then what do you do with that stuff afterwards. Like, okay, so, yes, so we learned about George Washington crossing the Delaware, so today for science, we're gonna learn what sinks and what floats, okay? So, now we're gonna make, oh, we're gonna make little canoes out of aluminum foil and see how many pennies it takes to like, sink our canoe, right? Well, then, what do you do with the canoe? Like, it was made out of foil. Like, that means nothing. It's not, like, some art they made, cause they were inspired to make it, right?
S -
And my kids actually do a lot of that stuff. I mean, I will say, because I used to sort of do this, this was what I did. I mean, I would come up with, you know, the activities. And some of them were fun, don't get me wrong. But when I jerk that out from underneath them, it did take them a while to you know, like, we're not doing a lap book? We're not doing a a...no, we're not. And so, it was like, what do you mean? Well, what happens is, they will begin to own this education for themselves and whatever it is personally in them, that will come out. You know? I mean, my daughter is in love with Star Wars and she has a fourteen dozen of those things that they swipe through the air. Lightsabers. And those lightsabers have been swords from people from every era of history. From...
J -
Oh, sure, yeah, totally.
S -
Right? But that's not creating a sword with... ??? seventeen hundreds. I'm not doing that. If, this is her either interacting with the material she heard because it's living, and she's inspired on her own to do that. And those connections are made on her own. And so I don't know about anybody else, but for me, that is a huge, like, okay, deep breath, I do not have to come up with a different way to keep them excited this week.
J -
Yes, and that's huge...I mean, that is the exhausting part, right? If it's all on me to make sure that you're excited and interested, otherwise, you're not gonna learn this, then that's a lot of pressure. And it's very tiring. And it takes a lot of prep time that a lot of parents don't have. But yeah, I can read you a book that I'm excited to read too. Because these are interesting. And yeah, and then you're gonna tell me about it and you're gonna own it and then you're gonna keep doing that for the rest of your life.
S -
For the rest of your life.
J -
They're not gonna probably make a paper Mache model when you're in college. Unless you're ??? But, right? Like, you're not gonna be like an engineer going, oh, yeah, okay, well, I read this history book and so now I'm gonna make a paper Mache model. This is how I learn. Cause I'm a kinesthetic learner, and so...
S -
Though I haven't...in order to learn this particular thing.
J -
Yes. No. I can read. I can talk about ideas till I'm a hundred and two, you know?
S -
Which is what we're doing now because we love to do it. I mean, this is you and I, the conversation...
J -
Oh yeah, this podcast is totally for the two of us. Yes. We hope other people enjoy it as well, but...
S -
These are the conversations we are having when we're not being recorded. I mean, we're still having these conversations. But, and I'm having them on the phone with my friends and I'm having them, you know, in groups, and I think that's a beautiful thing, and I, I mean, we've studied the planets, okay, and constellations. Well, I, my children themselves have taken rocks in the yard and made constellations in the yard because they're interested in it. And I do think that sometimes we'll give them opportunities for narration that may look like, I'll say, okay is there anything in this, would you like to use your Legos today?
J -
Oh, we do that all the time.
S -
Oh, yeah.
J -
Yeah, that's totally different. That's not, yeah. That's still narrating.
S -
Yeah. So, I just wanna make a distinction between...
J -
That's good. That's a very good point to bring out. Yes. It's not all just telling or writing. A narration can be a multiple different venues, right.
S -
...different things that use some of these items that we're talking about. But the difference is, is that they're using materials to express what they took from...what ideas they took from the book. Not me saying, let's do this cute little add-on.
J -
Right. That you came up with, right? And it is not that Charlotte Mason never did activities. I wanna kinda clear that up too. It's like, so, for the planets, for instance, you mentioned that, and when they would go out there and they would go, okay, here's the relative distance between earth and mars in steps, and then earth is gonna be a bean and mars is gonna be a golf ball. I can't even remember. Like, you know, and then they would put all the planets out on the field. You know, they would do those kind of outdoor geography lessons.
S -
That geography...
J -
Science lessons. The nature studies. I mean that was, you know, there a lots of things that are being hands-on, and I get that all the time. Like, I'm interested in Charlotte Mason, but my kids really a hands-on learner, so I don't think it's gonna work for us. I'm like, are you kidding? Like, my kids use their hands constantly. I mean, they're outside doing all kinds of stuff with their hands, you know? It's just not me coming up with all of it for every subject, kind of.
S -
And you have time to do that stuff because we're doing these short lessons, so we're not setting in school till three o'clock every day. I mean, we're going. And then, you know, we have time to do all these different things. I mean, my kids are older but I'm telling you now, Play-Doh, in this house, is like an awesome commodity. They love it. I mean, we're still getting Play-Doh out and playing with Play-Doh for narrations. Yes. Lots of different things so, the stuff is there, it's just in the approach to how you consider these fun activities and whose job is it to be involved in them. It's my kid's job to get involved. It's not my job to set them up.
J -
Or that you have to have that, in order for them to learn.
S -
Right.
J -
The living books and the narration is how they learn. The extra things are great, right? And especially for younger kids, when you want them to have that concrete, and see the, how the flower is put together. You hold a flower, and you touch it, and you see how the planets are when you're out on a field, and the size of them. You know, like, those kind of concrete things with math. Kids need that, so it's not like there's nothing that's hands-on. She has lots of hands-on components. For sure. But they're not arbitrary, I think, is the key. And the other question I get all the time too is about making connections. So, as teachers, you know, the big push when I was in college was on unit studies and gosh darn it, I could write one amazing unit study after another. And I loved it. It was so fun. Okay, we're gonna do this whole two-month thing on oceans, and here's the books we're gonna read and the science experiments we're gonna do. And, you know, the history lessons and math lessons and, I mean, it was just so much fun for me to plan it.
S -
I still have my planner. It has like a little circle in the middle. And it has like, oceans. You'd write... lines out of each one, it's so like, what are we gonna do for science? Math concepts? And this is our history that goes in with oceans. And then this is the, you know, for the kinesthetic learner, we're gonna do this. And then, I mean, it's like, this page full. And I spent hours. I'm not even kidding.
J -
Oh. Weeks.
S -
I was...hours, putting that together. I mean, you go to implement it, and you realize the most fun you had was planning this. Producing the learning that I want it to produce. And you know, I guess if we're going back to, really, the practicality of the role of the teacher, isn't that where it starts? Is what's the goal? Like, what is the goal for our children? What do we want for them? And then we back up and we say, how do we actually get that? Not what makes us feel like we had a great school day, right? Or looks good on a planner.
J -
Or on Instagram, right.
S -
Or Instagram, right. Oh gosh. I mean, 99% of the learning that goes on this, there is no way to put this on any...
J -
That's why I don't post pictures of the cute things my kids did, cause it's like, we don't, I don't have any of that. Like, I can't take a picture of them playing outside with lightsabers like yours. Like, it's just, it's not, like overproducing this thing that shows they learned. I learned I know they learn cause they're telling me it. Like, it's hard to take a picture of that.
S -
Because they're making connections.
J -
Exactly. And I got that question and the other day they were saying, in terms of, like, A Gentle Feast, that like, the language arts packets and the lessons in the morning time, that's all around the same general time period, but it didn't all match up on the exact day. And I was like, and your point? Like, yeah, it doesn't. I guess on purpose, right? Like, it's not your job as a teacher to make sure everything fits together. That's the student's job is to...so if like, you know, they learn about Vermeer, and then, like, you know, a couple months later, they're into that time period and, oh, okay, now it's all connecting here. Like, it's not, like, everything every week is gonna... cause you're never gonna, I don't know about you, but I'm never on the exact weeks anyway on different subjects. So, like...
S -
On week one... week one it looks great, and then after that, I'm like, okay, never mind, we're flipping back. And forth. You know. And I think, too, is though, that's a reminder that life is messy like that. I mean, life is messy like that in the things that we learn, you know? I mean, right now, you know, I have kids leaving home and so, I have a lot more time with, I'm just gonna have two children at home. And it's a blessing, but I have a lot more time to read and study and research right now. For me, for myself. But that doesn't always look that way, and as soon as sport seasons hit again, it will look like that as much. But when we try to put everything together in a little package, it just doesn't relate to real-life learning as much as it needs to. Like, my son came to me last week and he said, I really want this book but it's fifty-six dollars. And I'm like, okay what kind of book is this that you want? And he said, well, it's about turbines.
J -
I don't even know what that is today. I'm just kidding.
S -
I don't either! I have never taught this child one thing about turbines. It's from...I don't know. Somebody listening is probably cringing because they know... So why, but why does he want this turbine, right? Because he is going to the aircraft maintenance technician program at a local college and this is not a textbook for his class, for his program. It's not. But as he was learning what he's gonna be learning about, he came across this book and it's really fascinating to him and he wants this book. That's just like, it follows no straight line of thought. It is all over the place, like, how you got to there. But when they are used to following that really squiggly turns and twists and backflips and forwards lines of thought, then they're gonna teach themselves whatever it is they're interested in learning, which right now, apparently, is turbines.
J -
Yes. And they're motivated, because that motivation comes from within, and it can't come from without. And so, you know, and traditional classroom, it was very much, okay, well, if you read this book then you get to go to the ice cream party, and if you don't do your homework, then you miss out on recess. And it's all these rewards and punishments to try to motivate them to do something they honestly really don't even want to do. Right? So, you have to have this external thing cause they could care less, right? And that's Charlotte Mason's thing is we want them to care. That makes them motivated. How do we get to that without these fake ways to kind of push and pull them and manipulate children into doing what we think they need to know? And that's by bringing them to this feast and letting them partake of what they will. So, do you have any closing thoughts or quotes for us here?
S -
Let's see here. A couple of last-minute quotes on the end, and then one point. This one is from Volume Three, it says, it cannot be too often said that information is not education. So, we as teachers are not, and as parents, are not trying to just provide information in order to educate them. The education, right, what we talked about, we've grabbed a hold on, and then this one is from Volume Six, the function of education is not to give technical skill, but to develop a person. And I just wanna say this one thing on this note that has really been super helpful for me, is that understanding my role as a teacher in a Charlotte Mason education has helped me not feel like there's such a split between my role as a teacher and my role as a parent. Because I'm...and...
J -
Yes. We all are. Whether you're homeschooling or not. Right? Yeah.
S -
Rather than me saying, okay, now I'm wearing my teacher hat, and then, now it's two o'clock and I'm gonna put on my mother hat. It has very much helped me to see those two things as meshed together. I'm just, just like I would provide them with a healthy lunch, and a healthy supper, I'm providing them with these healthy ideas of living books, and their job is to come to the table and take those things. And it really, understanding those two, that has helped me so much, not feel like I just have to make these kids do this stuff. Which is sort of like, what I had thought before? I just gotta make em do it, and then I'm gonna get aggravated and they're gonna be aggravated, and mom just keeps telling me to do this stuff. And we have sort of alleviated...I mean, of course, not a hundred percent of that, cause we live in the world, but most of that, for us.
J -
Yeah. That's really good. And I get this question a lot too, about, like, well, about like the learning styles. What if my kids are more auditory? Or more kinesthetic? Or, you know, they're not visual, so, just reading things, they're really not gonna learn that way and I'm like, really? Cause i have a lot of kinesthetic learners and you know, like I said, they're playing stuff with their hands and they're doing handstands, and we're doing something on the trampoline. But like, they are likely spinning around the whole time I'm reading a story and then two years from now, they'll say something, and I'll be like, oh. You were actually paying attention when I read that two years ago? Oh, I'd totally forgot about that. You know? That those ideas are getting in there. I don't have to tailor and change the way I teach to every child in my family, and that is a huge relief. That these are the methods and the principles that she laid down, and I use them for every child. And they work for every child.
S -
Yep. I will say amen to that.
J -
Yeah, so that's a great way to end this show. I hope this was helpful for everyone. Thanks for joining me today, Shay.
S -
Oh, thanks. Always a good time.
Julie -
Thank you for joining us today on the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I would love to meet you in person. All of the Great Homeschool Conventions have been rescheduled to 2021. Go to GreatHomeschoolConventions.com to find a convention near you. But you don't' have to wait until 2021 to experience the amazing speakers and vendors at the Great Homeschool Conventions. They now offer an online convention that you can find on GreatHomeschoolConventions.com.
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