CM 29 Charlotte Mason 101 Education is a Life with Shay Kemp
Show Notes:
Episode 29- Education is a Life with Shay Kemp
Description: In this podcast, Julie talks with fellow CM homeschooler Shay Kemp about the Charlotte Mason principle “Education is an atmosphere, a discipline and a life,” focusing on the concept that education is a life. They discuss what intellectual, moral and physical nourishment look like in the context of a Charlotte Mason education, the feast of ideas, and ways to tell that our children are being “fed” a generous curriculum.
Meet Julie:
Picture-
Bio- Julie H Ross believes that every child needs a feast of living ideas to grow intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. As a former school teacher, Curriculum Coordinator, and Assistant Director of a Homeschool Academy, Julie Ross has worked with hundreds of students and parents over the past 20 years. She has also been homeschooling her own five children for over a decade. Julie Ross developed the Charlotte Mason curriculum, A Gentle Feast, to provide parents with the tools and resources needed to provide a rich and abundant educational feast full of books, beauty, and Biblical truth. Julie lives in South Carolina. When she’s not busy homeschooling, reading children’s books, hiking, or writing curriculum, you can find her taking a nap.
Meet Shay:
Picture-
Bio-
Shay is a homeschooling mom of 5 who loves enjoying the learning journey with her children and encouraging others in their paths of faith, parenting and homeschooling. She believes that the best conversations happen when you are comfortable on the front porch and blogs from there about at passersbywelcome.com.
Resources:
A Philosophy of Education, by Charlotte Mason
Gentle Exams ebook by Julie H. Ross
A Philosophy of Education p 105
“For the mind is capable of dealing with only one kind of food; it lives, grows and is nourished upon ideas only; mere information is to it as a meal of sawdust to the body; there are no organs for the assimilation of the one more than of the other.”
Bible Verse:
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
Show Transcript:
CM EP 29 Shay Kemp
Julie -
Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show, a podcast dedicated to discussing Ms. Mason's philosophy, principles, and methods. It is our hope that each episode will leave you inspired and offer practical wisdom on how to provide this rich, living education in your modern homeschool. So, pull up a chair. We're glad you're here.
Today's episode of the Charlotte Mason is brought to you by Medi-Share. Find out more about this affordable, Christian alternative to traditional health insurance at MediShare.com.
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I am here with my good friend, again, Shay Kemp. Hey.
Shay -
Hey everybody.
Julie -
Okay, so this has been part of a series. We have been going through the three tools that Charlotte Mason says we have in education. That education is an atmosphere, a discipline, and a life. So if you have not already, I encourage you to go back and listen to episode 19, which was, Education is an Atmosphere. Or episode 23, Education is a Discipline, before you listen to this one, which is the last tool. Education is a Life. And I feel like if you listen to all three of these podcasts, you will have a very clear, hopefully, understanding of, kind of the overarching picture of what Charlotte Mason was saying in her philosophy.
She talks about these three principles over and over and over and over again. And really, they form the foundation of everything she does. So, rather than jump into, like, okay, how did Charlotte Mason teach history? If you don't understand the philosophy behind this, before you jump into the methodology, you need to have the foundational understanding.
So, Education is a Life, comes from principle eight. And she writes, in saying that education is a life, the need of intellectual and moral, as well as a physical sustenance, is applied. The mind feeds on ideas and therefore children should have a generous curriculum.
All right, so let's break this first part down here. So, she's talking about that education is like a nourishment. Our minds needs this just like our bodies need food. So, what do you think of when you think of that, Shay?
Shay -
Well, the first word that really jumps out to me is that it's the sustenance. You know, like food is, it's what's carrying us. So, sustenance is a source of strength and nourishment. And when we think of education, a lot of times, we don't think of it as sustaining us. We think of that as, like an add-on, almost, you know? It's just, well that's extra. But she says we're actually providing them sustenance. Intellectually and morally,. So that's, even that in itself is a powerful way to think about education.
Julie -
Yeah, she uses this kind of food metaphor a lot. Which means she's a girl after my own heart, cause I too could relate to anything that has to do with food.
Shay -
Yes.
J -
But, yeah, and so, in Volume Six, she says, the mind is capable of dealing with only one kind of food. It lives, grows, and is nourished upon ideas only. Mere information is to it as a meal of sawdust in the body. So, yes, our children's minds need to be fed, but what are we feeding it with. Are we feeding it with something that's going to nourish them, that's going to grow? Well, she says, that's only ideas.
S -
Right.
J -
Or are we feeding them something that makes them...when I think of sawdust, I think of like a scarecrow. Like, it looks like the scarecrow is full. It looks like the scarecrow's alive. But there's nothing to it. So, are we just... if we're just filling them with information, there's nothing really in there. Like, that isn't... ideas grow, whereas information is just stuffing.
S -
And, also, sawdust has no taste. So it makes…
J -
True, yeah.
S -
Something that, you know, it's... you want, because there's a flavor to it. It has taste. It has something you're gonna enjoy, you know? Like if you're gonna sit down in front of some beautiful salad that has all these flavors and it's so yummy. Or are you sitting down in front of like a piece of toast. Or like she was... not even food. Like, just sawdust.
J -
Yeah. It's not even something you're supposed to put in your body, right?
S -
Not even something you wanna eat. And so, to take that metaphor and roll it over into what we're thinking we're actually giving our children, for their minds... I would never put something in front of them... I would never call them to the table and have sawdust on the table. And yet, for me to take the really... carry that out when it comes to how I'm educating them, that it is something that is nourishing. Sustaining. You know? That's just...
I hope that people consider that when they're really thinking about beginning to homeschool. Like, even all the way back from the beginning, you know, so many people say we're gonna do this and, you know, just give me a textbook, give me a workbook or something. Okay, that subject is covered. But it's just sawdust laid out on the table, you know? So.
J -
Right. Yeah. And I think of, like, you plant sawdust in the ground, nothing's going to happen to it. Right?
S -
Right.
J -
But you plant something that's living, a seed, that already has the nourishment that the seed needs to grow, right? Which is what an idea is. It's that seed. And you put it in the ground, you water it, you take care of it, it is going to grow. That's cause that's what the seed is meant to do. Right? And our kid's minds are meant to grow. But are we giving them, you know, the water and the sunlight and the nourishment that they need for those ideas to take root? And to grow.
And I think, too, we think, oh, well, our kids aren't gonna like... like you were talking about like the flavor, right? Well, does that mean they're gonna like everything that we're feeding them?
S -
No, never. Never. They're never gonna love it. But at the same time, unless they taste it, how are they gonna know if they're gonna like it or not? So, you know, you've gotta put that out there. And when the idea of them... of those ideas growing like seeds, I think that's one thing that, in this stage of life I'm in, having younger children and older children, you really do see with older kids, where you have had ideas planted where they actually have grown.
J -
Yes.
S -
Those things, or some of things are even trees in my...
J -
Oh yeah.
S -
Saplings, maybe. And then maybe my younger ones, some of those ideas are just little, you know, little tiny things just pushing up from the soil. But if I had put sawdust in them all those years, it would just be, okay, we're leaving that behind. Which we do a lot of that growing and nourished seeds turning into something that you can harvest. I just love that.
J -
So then, how do we know if we're feeding our kids sawdust or if we're feeding them a living seed?
S -
You're looking for the growth, is what I think. I think you're looking for, you're looking... are those ideas actually growing or are they... and by that, I mean, are they making connections with other things? And also, I think, are they... do they want to come to the table? You know? Like, I mean, I think, for me, now, okay, it won't let me... I'm not gonna paint some picture, like, in the Kemp household, everybody's like, oh yay, it's schooltime, I can't wait! But it's, you know, there are times where they're like, oh I love that book. Oh, yes, I remember that! You can almost see them wanting to come to the table to grasp some of those ideas that have grown, you know, to grab some more of those things.
J -
Yeah, it's so funny, I'm doing this, like, story time on the Gentle Feast Facebook Group, and I've been having my kids, you know, sit and listen... they don't really listen to picture books anymore. They're kind of too old for that, you know? But I'm like, well if I'm gonna read these books and record it, you might as well just sit here and listen to it anyway. And so, but, every time, they're like, I remember that book! I love that book
Well, when I was reading that book to them, like, five years ago, they're like, yay, mom, I love this book, so thank you for reading this to me today. You have filled my mind with so much wonderful things. No! Like, they were spinning around, and fighting with each other, and I'm like, no one's paying any attention. Yet, five years later when I bring the book back out, they're like, Yes, I love this story! Right? Because it's something that's alive. And so, I think when we think of feeding them, what are we feeding them, she primarily talks about feeding them upon books.
So, this is from The Story of Charlotte Mason. She says a real concern is that children should have a good and regular supply of mind-stuff to think upon. That they should have large converse with books as well as with things. That they should become intimate with great men through the books and works of art they have left us. The best part of themselves. Thought breeds thought. Children familiar with great thoughts take as naturally to thinking for themselves as the well-nourished takes to growing. And we must bear in mind that growth, physical, intellectual, moral, spiritual, is the soul end of education.
So this growth, that we're looking for, which she says is primarily comes through books. And then she does mention art here, as well. Right, these other things that we bring into their education. But mainly, by becoming intimate with the great men of books. So, it's these living ideas that they're getting from these books that are feeding them that creates an education that's living as well.
S -
When they read these books like... when they read those books like that, they're taking in more than we think that they're taking in. And sometimes we're so concerned that they seem like they're enjoying it...
J -
Yes.
S -
But we're looking for something...oh, well, that didn't do any good because nobody got real excited that I read that story. So you can't look for the output right then, cause that's like putting a seed in the ground and running out there in the morning and saying, do I have a sunflower? You know? It's not gonna happen so, that's something I think that people who have been in this for the long haul need to say to those who maybe are just starting. And I need to be reminded, myself, even though I've been doing it a long time is that, these seeds take time to grow from the kind of books you were just talking about.
J -
Right. Yeah. For sure. And that, you know, where it says here that thought breeds thought. Children familiar with great thoughts think for themselves. And I think that is the really big difference. If you're a passive learner and someone is just pouring into you, and I think...it was really interesting, I got a text from a friend today, and you know, with this COVID situation, where all the people are doing home-bound education, and you know, her child's having to watch a lot of videos. And she said, you know, within five minutes, she's totally checked out and she doesn't remember anything. Well, there's no buy-in in that, right? It's just, I'm just passively sitting here waiting for information to float into my brain rather than, you know, Charlotte Mason's way of educating, where the students are doing the work of education for themselves, in coming in touch with great thoughts through these really great books. Then they're making their own, like you said, connections. They're narrating so they're having to think and process information and that thinking is going to lead to more thinking.
S -
Yes. And you know, just like a poorly nourished body does not function well, a poorly nourished mind is not gonna function well. You know, we can't expect to put in front of our children poor nourishment for their minds and then expect them to think great thoughts. We have to put in front of them those great ideas of other people thinking great thoughts. Or other people who, I mean, not in every story is the hero just the main thing we want them to get. We also want them to understand, you know, that possibly the villain taught us a lesson. Right?
J -
For sure.
S -
So, yeah, right. So it's all these things that they're... we have to put in front of them to nourish them so that their minds are strong. And it's so easy to forget that, though, in the daily, isn't it? ??? We just get it done. But, that's like saying, quick! Eat your lunch quick, we have to go to piano lessons! Just eat it, eat it, eat it! You know?
J -
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah, you don't take the time to savor it. We should, right? Just like we would savor a really great meal. We're savoring this beautiful, rich education that we're getting. And I like what you said about how poorly nourished people, they don't know how to think for themselves. Right? And that's what... and she talks a lot about this. I mean, it's interesting that she was writing it, the early 1900s, right? And then we have the whole Nazi regime in World War II happening, shortly thereafter, of seeing what happens when a whole generation of people are taught not to think for themselves. Right?
And I definitely see that in our culture today, right? Of, even when I was a teacher, the kids were always like, um, so is this gonna be on the test? Or, wait for me to tell them what to think or what the correct answer is before they would even share that they've never learned to think through themselves. I mean, think for themselves, to be able to articulate what they're thinking, right?
S -
Or make a connection with something in the present with something in the past. Like, I mean, I certainly wasn't educated that way, to look at something that was going on now and say, hey, that reminds me of this situation that happened, I remember, you know, when this story, or this history book or whatever. I didn't learn like that.
J -
Yeah. Yeah, she's, you know, saying that, to have great citizens, you know, people do have to be able to think for themselves, to wrestle with ideas, like you were talking about, the villain the good...like, you know, to make those kind of moral decisions. And that kinda feeds into the next thing she talks about is that, we're not just feeding their intellect, we're feeding their soul, right? We are giving them moral nourishment as well. So what do you think of when we talk about that kind of moral nourishment?
S -
For us, I think it's important we start every day with our Bible time with our Scripture reading. And, there are times, I mean, honestly, I put my head down on the table and said, why am I wasting my time?
J -
Oh yeah, me too. I'm like, and nobody listens to anything I just read today.
S -
Like, literally, we'll read, like, today, like, if a reading was, you know, be hopeful... today our reading was in Hebrews, and it said, you know, outdo each other in loving and being helpful and being kind, you know? And then in five minutes... ??? I'm like, did you guys even hear that?
J -
I'm so glad I'm not the only one.
S -
Was anybody else listen... literally, just said, we're trying to outdo each other, you know. But, with that said, I do think that thing that I'm just dropping those seeds in every day. I'm just dropping them, dropping them, dropping them, dropping them. And you know, what my goal is is that there's seed after seed after seed after seed after seed, through the consistency of starting each day with Scripture. I mean, you know, every day, so that something's gonna grow there, even if I don't really see it. And that is, I think, such a powerful part of moral training. Because, as parents, if we cannot look at our kids and say, oh, look at me, follow what I did. Do what I did. You know, Scripture doesn't teach that. We're supposed to... I'm an example of a redeemed human and now, look to the Scripture. Look to, you know, look to God and this... and Him. Not look to me.
So, I think that's the only thing I could really offer them. And then these beautiful stories, like you're talking about. Over and over and over again, where people learn from poor decisions, or they do choose courage over cowardice. Or...
J -
Yes.
S -
They choose to be loving rather than selfish. And they see this in these stories, either great stories, just from literature, or these real stories that we read in history of people who lived.
J -
Right. Yeah. There was... I wish I could find it, but, that, you know, I just read studies and I forget where i read them. But, where they were measuring, like, the brains of college students. And they had... they read them from a textbook and then they did like an MRI, like, showing what parts of their brains were activated. And then they also tested, like, their hormones. And they did the same thing reading them a living account of the same material. So, something that was written in a narrative, engaging fashion, but still about the same concept.
And it was amazing to see all the different parts of their brains that lit up when they were reading something that was written in a narrative fashion. But then, also measuring their hormones. One of the hormones that was released was oxytocin. Which, as moms, we know that's like the bonding chemical when we have our babies. Right? And I just found that so interesting, because, when you're reading just a textbook, and it's like, so and so did this, at so and such place, at this date. Right? Your brain doesn't light up as it does when you're reading a story and you feel like you're there and you're wondering what's gonna happen next. And you're... what's happening is, you're connecting to the story. And what happens is, when you release that oxytocin, you're connecting to that person. To that character.
And so, that builds empathy. That builds the ability to go, oh yeah, I wonder what it would feel like to be like that? Or to have to struggle with that? Right? And that moral component, I think, really falls in and ties in well with, can you relate to other people who aren't like you?
S -
Right. And in this world, for me to stand up in front of my children and give them some prepared lesson, like, we should care about ??? It just was nothing but this is why I am so passionate about educating, following this philosophy and these methods. Because the brain research backs it up. And that's so important to me that I don't wanna waste my time. I mean, I have my kids for this little tiny, you know, block of time. And so, when I wanna make an impact on their lives, worldly, you know, spiritually. All these ways. I wanna do it in the most important way that actually gets it done. I don't wanna say, well that was a waste. You know?
And so, this brain research backing up that, yes, we want our children to grow in empathy and compassion, in courage, in bravery, in selflessness. This is the best way to do it. And this way, give them something to connect to, not just throwing it at them, you know? That is so encouraging to me.
J -
Yeah. And, also, I think of, we've been reading through The Hiding Place, and we actually just finished it. And, you know, we had a really great discussion on when is it okay to break the law? Cause Corrie is a person who loves Jesus, and you know, you can see that so clearly. But then she had to wrestle through, like, what's more important? Like, protecting these people's lives, right? Or obeying the rules? What if the people that are making the rules, like, how do you determine all of that? Right? Rather than, you know, just reading in a paragraph in a textbook about, you know, that there are people who helped hide the Jews and, you know. But when you see it through someone's eyes, and the struggling with those decisions, right? That helps you make those moral choices as you're growing up and you can relate back to them. And kind of think through... you're thinking. You're actually thinking through it.
S -
Well, and how many of us have read a book before, and I know, this is crazy... I don't know if there's anybody like me on this, so maybe y'all think I’m crazy, but I have literally read books before and gotten so connected to the character, that I'm like, oh, I wish I could call that person! Or, I wish I could hug that person. I wish I could, you know, like, you really wanna get in there and get...interact with them, you know? Cause it's so real, so alive. Or, I wonder what this person would think about this situation or that situation? And I've never read a textbook - ever - that made me feel that way.
J -
Yeah! Right!
S -
My biology textbook...what are... you know, just... you...and it... that's so powerful, shaping the little lives that we've been entrusted with.
J -
Right. That definitely falls into this concept of growing their intellect, growing their moral strength. Like that, kind of, fortitude.
S -
Yes.
J -
Today's episode is brought to you by A Gentle Feast. A Gentle Feast is a complete curriculum for grades one through twelve that is family centered, inspired by Ms. Mason's programs and philosophy, and rooted in books, beauty, and Biblical truth. You can find out how smooth and easy days are closer than you think at AGentleFeast.com. And then she also talks about, that education is life or growing their physical sustenance. So, what do you of in terms of that?
S -
Well, I think when you talk about physical sustenance, especially in the generation's today, it's really easy for our kids not to get up and move a lot. You know? Really, we're sedentary, I mean...
J -
Oh yeah.
S -
We're blessed on five acres, but even living on this, it would super easy for my kids to read their books, sit down in front of the screen, and the day is done. So, especially in this generation, I think it's really important that we make that a part of the educational day. Of the day. ??? There needs to be some sort of movement, some sort of, you know, involvement with your body in some way. And that can... there's so many options for that. We talked about, she offers Swedish drill as an option.
J -
Okay, so what is that? People will be like, what are you talking about, Shay? Swedish? Is that from Ikea?
S -
No. So, Swedish drill is a series of movements that you teach your children, there's some great resources...
J -
Yeah, we can link to that. Yeah.
S -
Yeah, Julie has some links. I'll make sure I put that in the show notes. That you teach your teach your children and they build on each other. And so, basically, the teacher or the parent or whatever, gives a command and then the child follows by doing those different motions. And they build. If you've ever seen Tai Chi? Anybody ever seen that? This is like a more prescribed series of motions, but it's part of that same idea.
J -
Yeah. And one of the things that I think's really interesting about Swedish drill is that it uses both hemispheres and both sides of the body, which, brain research, like we were talking about before, now shows, is super important to helping children learn. They need to have that physical movement every day. Bringing in both hemispheres and sides of their bodies. So, you know, they actually use that a lot with kids that are, you know, struggling with attention or sensory, and whatnot, but you know, obviously, Charlotte Mason was using this a hundred years ago.
S -
There are some great things about crossover that we use with my son who has had some attention disorder issues. And I think those... now I didn't know about Swedish drill back then, but...
J -
Yeah, me neither.
S -
It's some of those same movements.
J -
Yes. It does. Yeah, it reminds me a lot of... yeah.
S -
Yes, the crossover activities. Those are really powerful. And you do not need, you know, a lot of space to do those, is what's interesting. I mean, you can actually do those in your living room or..
J -
Oh yeah.
S -
In the small backyard, or whatever, you don't need a lot of space. But it's definitely that physical sustenance sort of idea.
J -
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we don't do Swedish drill a ton. I think it was super interesting when we did. And doing some of those crossover, like, activities with my one daughter who really needed it. But, I mean, we love yoga during the school day. Cosmic Kids is a YouTube channel where they do, like, all the... I mean, I just remember this frozen one we did that was just hilarious. Anyway. But, bringing some... I mean, again, it's just moving your whole body, really does help, like you said, and getting up. Charlotte Mason incorporated games, large group games. I mean, those obviously would have been in a school type of setting, or with multiple children. Scouting this outdoor time that she talks a lot about. She talks about letting the children swim and climb trees. I love her passage about that because I had several climbers who would shock everyone when we were at parks. Like, there's a child up there in that tree! And I'd be like, ??? and I look, I'm like, oh my goodness, wow! Look, there is a child way up there! Where is that child's parent?
S -
I don't know who he belongs to, but let me help you look around, right?
J -
Charlotte Mason says that's super important because they're building that... and my theory was always like, well, if they go that high, they're gonna figure out how to get down by themselves.
S -
Exactly. And I also think it's really important to remember that this doesn't always have to be these organized...
J -
Yes, yes.
S -
... activities. You know, like, it doesn't have to be an organized softball game. An organized Swedish drill, or an organized yoga. Just making sure that your children are getting some kind of movement, and really adding that in as part of what you consider the educational part of the day. Which, I know, it should be all day. CAuse I think that's the kind of stuff that just gets... can get pushed off to the side.
But she was so brilliant in knowing that our children will settle down to read better if they get to move.
J -
Yes.
S -
And then, our frustration that may come in some of those more quiet times can lessen if we make sure they really get that physical time. It all kinda goes together.
J -
Yeah, and I think we even become so concerned with the intellectual growth that we forget that the physical growth goes hand in hand with that. And you can't neglect taking care of your body and expect your mind to grow.
S -
Right. Exactly. And I mean, we think of it like I'm...okay, I gotta go to the gym. Or we've been doing...our gym's not open, obviously right now because of the COVID shutdowns, but we've been doing a ton of yard work so that we can physical activity in. Well, I think about that for myself. But a lot of times you don't think about that for your child, you know, it's just that intentionality.
J -
Yes. Right. And then, one of the questions we get a lot is, when we're talking about this concept of, kind of, feeding our children ideas rather than information. It's really easy to see if the information got into your child's brain. At least for a couple weeks. Or a day. Right? Because you can ask them a bunch of questions and they can regurgitate right back to you what they read or heard and then you go, oh, they learned this. Right? Even if, you know, tomorrow it's completely gone. It was at least in their short term memory for a little bit, right?
And so, but with something like this, it's a little bit trickier. So... how do I know that they're actually getting nourished?
S -
Well, I think...and I wanna say this. When we first started homeschooling...I don't know if anybody else has ever experienced this, but, you know, my...people would say, oh, you're homeschooling! Say your times tables.
J -
What's the capital of Nebraska? Like, what?
S -
Exactly.
J -
Yes.
S -
You know, what? You know, whatever, some, just, like, random thing.
J -
Who was the 24th president of the United States? Yeah.
S -
What are you asking that... So, I think, you know, you do, I think when you homeschool, you can, like, throw up this thing, oh, they've gotta know this, they've gotta know that, the've gotta know this list, or these facts and stuff. But in order to find out if they know the ideas, or if these ideas are taking root, I guess is really the way that we wanna say it, you don't wanna just dig up the plant and say, oh, are the roots growing? How's that doing down there? And you get back in the ground... oh, why'd it die? You know? To me, that's sort of the same way, that's what we're doing to our children. We say, okay, read this book. Now fill out this worksheet that tells me if you know all of the characters and what the main theme is and blah blah blah blah blah blah. You know?
So, what we're looking for is, can they make connections? You know? In their narrations, can we tell they grabbed a hold of something? When they're telling their narrations, do they understand the flow of the story? Like, did they understand, okay, well first, this sorta happened? And those are things that are going to grow. It's the same thing as putting a seed in the ground and waiting until that thing grows. We have to wait. And that waiting can make you nuts.
J -
Oh, it's not just me?
S -
No. It can make you...okay, so when we jumped in full CM, and it just, you know, I had been using methods and philosophies for a long time. But when I just ditched all the textbooks, I said to my kids, and said to my husband, we're gonna give it a time. Surely it can't screw you up in a term, right? And we're gonna see at the end of that term...I'm not gonna...we're just gonna go with it, trust the methods. We're gonna trust it, and in twelve weeks, we're gonna see where things are.
And I was nuts, because there was no note...I didn't do notebooking. I didn't give any worksheets. I trusted it. I trusted the narrations. And at the end of that term, the connections were so great, and their love of these books, and their ability to process the things that they had been talking about when we got to those exams, was so powerful, that i thought, okay, I'm sold.
J -
Yes.
S -
It's a lot different.
J -
Right. Yeah, I think, too, like you were saying, like, that waiting is very hard. Now, one of the components of Charlotte Mason's programs was the...you mentioned the word term. So her programs were divided into three twelve-week terms. And at the end, she would have an exam week. And she would send out the exam questions that went with the books that people had, you know, they subscribed to her programs, they would get a list of books that they needed for the term, and at the end, she would set out these exam questions and the parents would record their children's answers, or the students would write their answers. And then Charlotte Mason would actually read them and comment on all of them. So that's amazing. But, I think, you know, people are, okay, well where is the tests and quizzes? How do I know?
Well, it wasn't that she never gave anything kind of like that. Now, here exams were radically different than what we think of when we think of tests and quizzes. Basically, I like to think of them as extended narrations, so, they are very similar to a narration type question. You know, describe a scene from Tale of Two Cities. Compare and contrast Mr. Darcy and Mr. Wiccum. You know, something like that, you know? As they got older, they would be more specific in, you know, my younger kids, it might be, tell me the story of Daniel and the lion's den. Those kind of things. But it would be something we had learned through the term, and we might have not talked about that for weeks. I mean, we might have read Daniel and the lion's den, week three. Well, now it's week twelve. And I'm asking them to tell me back something.
So talk a little bit, kind of, about exams and your experience with that. And kind of...I'd love for you to share what you do, cause it's really cool.
S -
Well, I was really intimidated by this word, exam.
J -
Yeah! Oh, most of us are.
S -
So, it took me back to college and staying up all night and hoping to the good Lord that I remembered everything I'd crammed in my brain, you know, the night before. So, I call our exams "show me what you know day." And I decorate my dining room, where we school, I hang up balloons, and I put up a cute little tablecloth that, you know, I got at the Dollar Tree, and, so what I do with my kids is, I give them a big sheet of brown butcher paper. And I take a Sharpie marker and I just divide it up into all the subjects that we have talked about.
So, I just might write, you know, history, or, for my younger ones, I usually maybe write the name of the book at the top. Or something that we studied. And then, so what they do is they work on that brown sheet of butcher paper...it usually takes more than one day, but just a very easy kind of flow. And then, when they finish their narrations, their drawings, their pictures, the older ones will maybe type... I have them type it out. And then I print that out and paste it on that.
And then we show them to each other. And then I roll them up, and I tie them with a little ribbon and I write on the outside of the brown butcher paper, like, the name of the child and the cycle, the term, and the grade that they're in.
So, it's something fun, like, we really are just showing what we know. That's showing what we know. And I do wanna say this about exams. When I was a public school teacher, I taught kindergarten, but it was really important to me to try to work on that Blooms taxonomy, where we didn't always stay and, I don't know if you know about that, but it's levels of thinking, right? So, the lower levels are just really simple factual things. But the higher you get on this pyramid; it's really connecting ideas. It was really important to me to do things that were almost upper levels as much I could with those children.
So I do wanna say that exams, they're all in that higher levels of Blooms taxonomy. These are not, like, pick which one of these things is the answer to this question.
J -
Right. Or what color was Sally's shirt.
S -
Right. So, even though you may have more specific questions, like, we did a wildflower dissection yesterday. So, of course, our exams will be coming up before too long. I'll definitely have that on there. But I’m not gonna give them an outline of a flower and just say, fill in the blank, right?
J -
Right.
S -
We're gonna discuss that. It's gonna be at higher levels. So, I do wanna make sure that people understand this is not just, you know, an exam question that's just, we'll fill in the blank answer.
J -
Right, yeah, they're having to think through everything, kind of, all over again, and tell you about it all over again. And I love that concept of, like, tell me what you know. And I really feel like that... the way that she, kind of, structured these exams is it's not this high-pressured thing that we all think of that makes us wanna break out in hives. But, it's just, this beautiful relationship that we can have with our children and, let's just talk about... and celebrate. And it's focusing on what you do know, because that's what stays in your brain. Not tricking you to find out what you don't know.
S -
Yes, and I have a son right now who's taking a college exam. And he's been so frustrated because the questions on the exam ... I don't understand... which of these did not do blah blah blah blah blah? ??? And it's so...it's been really frustrating for him, because he does know the material. But trying to play the game of taking the test is driving him nuts. So, especially for children who, maybe, they're perfectionist kids. Not like I would know that, because it could not be any of my kids...
J -
No, of course not. Just one of your friend's kids, right?'
S -
Somebody I know.. somebody I know. It is so encouraging to be able to tell what you know.
J -
Yes.
S -
Just tell what you know.
J -
Yeah.
S -
Just say what you know and let's all cheer for you because that's what you know! And then you walk away confident, your head's lifted a little higher. You're really proud of yourself. Instead of saying, darn, I didn't get a A, you know? That is such a beautiful thing to be able to offer our children.
J -
Yes. Yeah, for sure. And, we can link to this in the show notes, but, ??? I do have a book about exams in a Charlotte Mason education. If you use a Gentle Feast, if that comes with the curriculum. But if you're using, you know, a different style of education, or you just wanna know, maybe, how she structured these exams, you can buy that. It's just a quick little eBook, but really digging into how these are different than what we think of in terms of exams.
But it's really important. You can't give your child a textbook and then do these kind of exams. Where they're talking about it... there's nothing to talk about. Right? There's no ideas that have been growing in their mind for weeks, because you've been filling them with information. And so, you know, one of the questions I get that was, well, do they ever learn dates and names and... of course they do. But that's not what we're starting with.
So she say, we are told that the spirit is life. Therefore, that which is dead, dry as dust, mere bare-bones, can have no affinity with him. Can do no other than smother and deaden his vitalizing influences. A first condition of this vitalizing teaching is that all the thought we offer to our children shall be living thought. No mere dry summaries of facts will do. Given the vitalizing idea, children will readily hang the mere facts upon the idea as upon a peg, capable of sustaining all that is needful to retain it.
So once I have these ideas, you know, the facts will come upon them. For sure, you know? But it's not, that's not what we're starting with, the fact.
S -
And I love...that's why I love our Book of Centuries. Because when we go back every week or... we usually do ours every two weeks... and we add in our dates, and go back over them and discuss them,
J -
Yes.
S -
I use that as a review. Because they're not looking at this as like, I remember this happened on this date. They're like, oh, that's the story about, fill in the blank. And so, that's where you kind of see the dates and the times and all that stuff coming together, because the ideas are planted. They're already growing in their mind. And then, they can hang that...I love that word picture, that is so neat. They can hang those on that, and...
J -
Back up! There's something to actually connect it to.
S -
Yes.
J -
There's a story, there's a person, I remember. Okay, now he can, like, remember that, you know? I mean, I don't remember, it must have been at high school, at some point, I had to memorize that the Battle of Hastings was in 1066, and I never forgot that, right? But that meant absolutely nothing to me, until I was reading our Island Story with my children, reading about the Battle of Hastings, and reading about William the Conqueror, and how his, like, stomach exploded when he was in his coffin. And my son just thought that was like the coolest thing ever. And I'm like, so now, when I think of 1066, I have actually something to connect it to. I have a person, I have a story, I have an idea.
S -
Right.
J -
It means something now.
S -
It's not just a random date, kind of, hanging out there in your head. And I can't tell you how many times, even in discussing things, my children will say, oh, I remember that because... I remember that because I remember this person. I remember that because when we read this story, I remember that because we did this with it. And that is... means it's into their memory. It's not like when I used to take a test, I'd cram it all in and then... well, I don't have to remember that again. Right?
J -
Now I can train my brain up to remember something else.
S -
??? is empty, put something else in there, right. Yeah.
J -
Alright, and then, to tie this all together, she says, because our children need these living ideas, our curriculum should be generous. So what does she mean by that?
S -
So the definition of generous is, more than is necessary, usual, or expected. And I think it's the same thing when we go back to this whole metaphor of food, that we're offering them more than they actually need...
J -
Yes.
S -
... You know, you don't...I made, you know, chicken and vegetable pasta tonight, right, for supper. Well, they don't actually need that. I could've just said, eat a sandwich, right?
J -
Right.
S -
I'm offering them more than they need so they can take what they want and maybe taste some bites here and there that maybe they like, maybe they don't like. But I am offering it to them.
J -
Right. Yeah. So, one of the things, I think is interesting, is to look at what Charlotte Mason included in her programs. So, a fifth grade student would have had the following subjects. Bible, Hymn Study, Poetry, Picture Study, Composer Study, Copywork dictation, Grammar, Literature, Math, Science, British History, French History, Natural History, Ancient History, Latin, French, German, Folk Songs and Dances, Swedish Drill, Sofa, Drawing, Handicrafts, Shakespeare, Plutarch, and Nature Study.
S -
Wow.
J -
And, in about, do that in about four hours a day.
S -
Right.
J -
So. How in the world did they cover all those different things? So when you think of generous, this was more than they need, right? This is a lot. But the key is, it's in little bite-sized chunks, right? So, Hymn Study. We might talk about the hymn. We're gonna sing it. That might take, fifteen minutes a week? Right? You're offering this, but you're not giving them full-sized dishes of all of it. These aren't all the main course.
S -
No, and I've had people say that just looking at my planner, when they're like, you do all of this? Well, I'm not doing all of this for an hour every day.
J -
Exactly right.
S -
I mean, I'm just...we just do it for just a minute or, actually, usually what I get is, you use all these books? ??? But, I may, I mean, we may only read this much. I mean, just like a couple of paragraphs, you know?
J -
Yes.
S -
We're not reading it, maybe not even an entire chapter in that book. And that's why it's so important, I do think, and my heart wants so much for people to understand the philosophy to go along with the methods, that they go hand in hand. So that you don't look at just a book list and say, no, too much.
J -
Yes. Right.
S -
You know, or you don't just hear a short lessons and say, oh great, thank the Lord. You know, I just let them...it has to go hand in hand, so that you can give them this generous curriculum. So we do get a lot done in a day, and when i look at it and I check it off, I mean, it doesn't, it makes me so excited about, you know, how much they're getting. How much they're getting to taste. Even though they don't love all of it.
J -
Right. And I think that's perspective, right? We could focus on, oh, well, I didn't get to this or that, or we never covered Plutarch this year. And we can get down on ourselves rather than saying, no, here are the things we actually did cover, and did do, and this is a very rich and beautiful feast. Like, focusing on the things we did cover rather than things we might not have. And I think, I totally agree with you, I hear from some people, like, oh I think Charlotte Mason's great. I looked at it. I can't do all of that, so, I'm just not gonna do it.
S -
Right.
J -
And I'm like, I've been doing this for 15 years and I'm still... I'm not covering all these things. Or, to the amount that I might want, right? But I'm giving them, like you said, these little bite-size pieces, and I love the metaphor that Cindy Rawlins uses, of morning time, that we're just adding little grains of sand, but they eventually add up to a life.
So, you know, there were years when we didn't do Shakespeare. But I took my kids to the Shakespeare summer in the park, and that was our Shakespeare for the year. Like, I'm getting those little tastes in there. You know, and now we're able to read a whole Shakespeare play together and frankly, I think they appreciate it because they had that little exposure over time.
S -
And I do wanna tie that back to the exams, and that's one of the reasons that exams are so encouraging for moms too. Because, moms and kids, when you look at this sheet, like we do ours on the big brown pieces of paper, look at what we covered. Look at what we learned. Look at this. And it's encouraging to me, like, okay, Shay, you did more than you think you did. And ??? bites here and bites here and bites there, and we all know how the day goes, you stop and do a load of laundry and then you have to stop and get the baby and then... you know, you stop and you work unit you have to answer this email, or whatever. It's sometimes that you don't realize how much you're doing, but when you provide a feast for them in this way, then, once you get to these intentional setbacks, like exams, and you look at what has been covered, you think, okay, this is definitely been more than I thought. We got done. And it's very encouraging.
J -
Yes. And just to know too, that, personally I feel like with, like, history, like, you're going to go back to this time period. You do not have to cover everything that happened in the 1700s this year. Because they will come back to this. And they'll add on and the depths...the way she approached history. And they're gonna add on more understanding as they go back through it. Which is also super encouraging. And I think we think, and I've definitely done this, where there's, you know, there's our seasons where we're like, I just gotta do the bare bones. We just gotta do some reading, we gotta do some math, and we're done. You know? But that makes...I get...and I fall into that mentality, believe me. But when I'm doing that for a season, it wears on me. Because it's not filling.
S -
There's no beauty.
J -
I'm getting, just, I feel like I'm starving. And I'm tired. And I'm, like, I wanna quit because I'm not being nourished. And neither are my kids. And they start whining and then the behavior problems come out and I think, oh my gosh, we can't do this. What am I thinking? Right? Yes! Because there's no, there's no nourishment, there's not those living ideas. And the beauty, right? We need the music and the poetry and the art and the rich literature to feed our own souls as well as our children's.
So, yeah, do you have any closing kind of thoughts on this idea?
S -
No, I guess only that I'm so grateful to just have that thought of ideas. Because it even helps me in deciding... I know there's like, a controversy over this book living, or is it not living? But when I'm choosing a book for my children, or wondering is this one that I wanna read, I can look at that book and I can think for myself, this metaphor of nourishment, is this something they would get nourishment from? In some way? Is it... and that has helped me so much. And there are some great little picture books out... there's lots of great things out there. Wonderful things that I can read and say, yes, this has some nourishment in it. Yes, let's add this to the library.
So, that's really helpful for me.
J -
Yes. And for me too, just to focus on, I think, Charlotte Mason's... I can't remember where she says this, but... all these kind of quotes just jumble in brain, but, and you know, she says, a morning without ideas is a morning wasted.
S -
Yes. Exactly. I love that.
J -
Even if the morning was all we got, and that's why I love morning time, because sometimes, everything just kind of falls apart after morning time. But...at least we got some ideas over breakfast! Like, hallelujah!
S -
Exactly.
J -
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. This has been very helpful.
S -
Always fun.
J -
Love you.
S -
Love you too. Thanks!
Julie -
Thank you for joining us today on the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I would love to meet you in 2020. I will be at all seven Great Homeschool Conventions, speaking as part of their Charlotte Mason track. Go to greathomeschoolconventions.com to find one near you.
If you want more information on what was shared in today's podcast, go to homeschooling.mom for the show notes. Also, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast in iTunes or Google Play so you never miss an episode. Until next time.
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