CM 3 Episode #15 The Importance of Literature in the Life of a Child with Julie H. Ross and Sarah Clarkson
Links and Resources:
Show Notes:
Sarah Clarkson is an author and blogger who writes regularly about literature, faith, and beauty at www.sarahclarkson.com. She studied theology (B.Th, MSt) at Oxford, and is the author of several books, including the recent Book Girl, a guide to the reading life. She posts regularly on Instagram (@sarahwanders) about books, beauty, and life in England, and also hosts live, regular read-alouds from the poems, novels, or essays that bring her courage. She can often be found with a cup of good tea and book in hand in her home on the English coast, where she lives with her Anglican vicar husband, Thomas, and their two children, Lilian and Samuel
Show Transcript:
CM EP 15
Julie -
Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show, a podcast dedicated to discussing Ms. Mason's philosophy, and methods. It is our hope that each episode will leave you inspired and offer practical wisdom on how to provide this rich, living education in your modern homeschool. So, pull up a chair, we're glad you're here.
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Hello everyone, welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross. And I am here today with Sarah Clarkson and I am so excited because I told her, I am so fangirling right now. And I am so impressed with you, I just think you're so lovely. And, yeah. So, thanks for coming on.
Sarah -
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It is a great pleasure to be here.
Julie -
Yes, and I really wanted you on because I love the writing that you do. I love how your brain works, and I love your, just, hunger for literature and explaining it. Showing people how beautiful it is. So, I hope our readers will be able to see that, not just for the children, but themselves as well.
Sarah -
Absolutely.
J -
I love that you approach it from your perspective of growing up in a really literature-rich home. But then also, as an adult who is continually learning and stretching your own mind as well, which is a beautiful thing because education is alive, right? It doesn't stop when you graduate.
S -
Absolutely. It is a full-length thing.
J -
However many years it takes you to do that, right?
S -
It took me a long time, so.
J -
Yeah. Well. We're always learning, even if we're not in a formal classroom, right? So, let's just get started here. And I was laughing too, I had asked you to come on and talk about your book, and I called it Story Girl instead of Book Girl. But then I was like, actually, that's really kind of...
S -
I take it as a compliment.
J -
Yeah, when you think of a book Story Girl, by Ella Montgomery, and you... one of my favorites. I was like, oh, well that kinda works. But, can you tell us a little bit about your book, Book Girl, first, and then we can kinda dive in and talk about it a little deeper.
S -
Sure. So, Book Girl is a book I wrote several years ago. I wrote it because it's a bit of a story, so I had spent...such a long story. But I grew up in a wonderful home filled with literature, with parents, Clay and Sally Clarkson, who just gave us a childhood rich in books. And somewhere about...I don't think I realized that it was a gift. I mean, you grow up with what you know, and you don't realize, that this is revolutionary and radical. And all of the beautiful thing that's been passed on to you. So...
J -
I'm gonna let my kids all listen to this, and be like, see this lady? She says its a gift. Just want y'all to know.
S -
Absolutely. And that was basically the truth to writing Book Girl. But when I was 21 I heard this talk by Dana Joy. He was then the head of the National Endowment for the Arts, and he had done this extensive research into American literacy rates. And he looked specifically at reading and stories and poetry, so, didn't count if you were reading, like, newspapers or textbooks. He wanted to see what the literary intake of America was. And basically, at that point, and that was, gosh, almost 15 years ago. Basically, it was falling across every level of age group, income, area. Like, people just weren't reading anymore. He wrote this passionate defense in a document called Reading at Risk, about why reading created capable citizens. About how you needed to be a reader if you were going to be someone who could deal with issues, ideas. If you could be someone who would interact with information rather than just receive it. And I think that was the first time...I remember sitting in that talk, that room, and going, oh, my goodness. Like, is this something that everybody doesn't have? Like, is reading that special?
So I started doing research and was just amazed at the way that this...the reading life really is a gift, and it's something that I think people give to each other if that makes sense. So, I think it's very much something you give to another person. So, my parents gave it to me. It's something I want to pass to my children. It's something that we teach each other to value. And I think that, in a screen age and in a distraction age, we really have lost, often, that recognition that being people who are readers, it's not a specialty hobby just for those who like it.
Being people of language and words, being people who grow, like the words we encounter, that's human. That's...I mean, if you look at Scripture, you know, we came into being by the Word, through the Word made flesh. So there's...sorry. Through the Word, and then He was made flesh. But, I think language is at the heart, in some ways, of what it means to be human and how we see the world. And so, the more I studied that for children, I was just, I began writing right then, a couple of books of my reading is so important information in children's identity and souls.
But then, I would talk to moms after I gave talks. Moms who are about my age or a little bit older, and they would say, I love what you're saying, but I didn't grow up as a reader. I don't know where to begin. I'm doing this for my children but what about me? And so, yeah, so, a few years ago, when I had just finished a course at Oxford, I didn't start studying university until I was 30. Just in case anybody wonders if you ??? I finished study by the time my first child...and it was just like, I have been so brought back to life by even that time of study at Oxford, which was just based on lots and lots of reading. And realizing my capacity to learn and grow as I came into contact with great books. It just removed my sense, not only of the importance of reading for children, but this is something I want the women in life, the women in my readership and audience, to know that they were made to be readers and learners.
So Book Girl was very much, came out of that kind of realization that this is for all people. And that so many of us didn't have those...I talked with so many friends, and just people online, and gotten letters about, I didn't grow up in a reading home. How do you begin? I'm an adult, where do I start? And so that's what Book Girl was. It's a gift to the women in my life and friends who didn't have that background. Cause reading was a gift given to me, so it's easily something I can pass on. That's what, to me, is.
J -
Yeah. And I really appreciate that. Yeah, I've definitely run into that as well. Mothers who are saying, okay, well how am I supposed to teach my children in this way and this...this isn't how I learned, and I don't even...
S -
Yeah.
J -
Well, let's start with that. Can we start with that question, kind of?
S -
Sure.
J -
So, moms, you know, obviously the book goes into very much detail. But, they're like, okay, yeah, I didn't grow up in this kind of home. I don't even know where to start. What's...
S -
Yes.
J -
...the first step on this journey, this little path?
S -
Begin reading and start with something you love. The thing about, I think, books, is that, I read a lot of, you know, you read a lot about how it looks to have a reading life, and how many books should you read? And what should your schedule look like? And basically, I think it comes down to, you read the things... like, especially if you're just beginning. And especially, especially, if you're in a point like I am right now, where, I don't have that much reading time. So, I read things...a bit of poetry, a bit of a novel to keep my soul alive. Then it's the never sleeping with my eight-month-old child.
But I think you just begin...I mean, first is, learn to see yourself as someone who's a learner. Cause I think that that's really basic too. Really, life is to understand. Learning doesn't stop. The way that you were created, the way you were crafted by God, is to be someone who comes in contact with words and learns and grows. That we expand our view of how we see ourselves, how we see other people. How we understand our place in the world, what we're called to be, what's possible. That words make the worlds around us, in that sense. And, so I think that that doesn't ever stop. So I think, you know, for children, it's so important, because the books that they're reading, the stories they're encountering are teaching them, what does it look like to be good? What does it look like to hunger for something great? What does it look like to be a hero or a heroine? But that doesn't stop for us in adulthood. And so, I think this thought...first thing is to have that thing, that mindset, and this is for me. I am not...that's not a specialty thing, this is a for me thing.
And then, I mean, on the most practical levels, just start small. Put aside five, ten, twenty minutes a day, and read something. And read something you love. You know, we progress into the reading life, and that's one of the things I say in Book Girl is, it's a journey. It's an adventure. So, you start with one title and you go to another, and you find people who can mentor you. Find reading community if you can. Find other people who might be interested in this journey that you can talk with about what you're reading. But I think it's just starting small. Find a book you love. Part of Book Girl is my hope that there will be many books suggested that people could possibly love. And start with that one. And read a few minutes every day.
J -
There's some great book lists in there, and every time I was like, oh, I remember that. Yeah. But, yeah. I think it's really key, is, and it, for me, it was making it habit. Because...
S -
Yeah.
J -
I'm just like, oh, well, when I have an extra ten minutes, I'll hop on over and read this book. Well, that's just never gonna happen.
S -
It never happens.
J -
Right. And I believe this is...you can correct me if I'm wrong...but I think I got the idea from your mom, or maybe she said something, and this wasn't what she meant, but I took it as this. Of having, like, after lunch, after we've cleaned up, I have, like, a personal tea time. I set the...I have my little teapot and my little candle, and I set the timer, and I read for fifteen minutes and don't talk to me. I'm reading.
S -
Yes.
J -
In the middle of the day, cause that's, like, after we've done our morning lessons, and my brain is fried. And I need some introverted recharging time before the next thing comes.
S -
Yes. Absolutely.
J -
Yeah. Well, you know...
S -
Well, also...one thing I think is the best thing that my parents did was they said, from the time we were little, well, you can either nap or you can read for an hour.
J -
I remember reading that in the book.
S -
But it serves me well in the sense that it really, really established that habit, so that even now, when I don't have much time, and there'd be some many other easy things to just, you know, zone out on, I felt like, you know, I want to have this daily habit of reading. I want to be progressing even if it's two pages a day. And I think in cases like that and...I mean, it becomes a rhythm in your life and it becomes something that you just expect to look forward to. That's such an important part of the reading life. It's just...and creating time for it, I think that what you're saying by setting the timer, setting this time aside, making a cup of tea and this is my time. I think that's an important state to claim in the wide landscape that is our day.
J -
Yeah. And it really ties in with Charlotte Mason was saying too, because, you know, we don't have to consume huge chunks of a book at a time. She was very purposeful about reading small readings over an extended period of time. And in some of her books, would take the kids two or three years to get through, you know? It doesn't have to be this, I'm gonna sit down and read Le Mist tomorrow. Like, you can...
S -
Well, I think that's the most important thing to know. Yes. And savor it, because I think one of the things that's in real danger of our culture is, we become such consumers of information and we can scroll through screens so quickly that we are really quickly losing the desire to think deeply, and to sit with a concept and to let it change us in an interior and deep way. And I think, you can read a paragraph and think about it the rest of the day. And that, in this sense, is a better kind of reading than a skimming, quick reading, just to get through something. It's not about, there is no race when it comes to reading. There's only the journey.
J -
Yeah. And it takes some kids too, I think, want to do that, because the stories are super engaging and...
S -
Yes.
J -
...you know, what's gonna happen in... yeah. And that's great, you know. My seventeen-year-old, when she's studying for finals, she reads Nancy Drew, like, so she'll study, and then read Nancy Drew, as a distraction, then go back and review.
S -
Just listen to the cliff hanger, so you have to go to the next chapter.
J -
Which is fun, for her, you know, it's, like, kind of fun reading, but it just goes from one thing, and go back to the other stuff. But, you know, I think, in our culture, like you know, Netflix, you can watch all of Stranger Things, like, the day it comes out, right? You can just...we just consumer things. Food, I mean, everything in our culture, we don't savor it. And Charlotte Mason did talk about that too, that kids need time in their day, when they're not buys when they're not in activity.
S -
Yeah.
J -
Not doing school. Because those ideas need time to take root.
S -
Absolutely. And I think your brain is actually, I mean, some of this research they did, your brain is actually working in a different way. Like, it is doing different things when you're reading, in a slow way, that's not a screen or not a...but...you're...it's comparing...it's fascinating stuff, like, it's actually translating the figures that are words. It's turning it. You're actually hearing them in your mind. Your brain is comparing what you know with what you're finding to be true. It's deciding the things that's true. I mean, there's this multilevel activity going on when you're actually reading, and in an intensive and in a focused way, that is totally different from when you're just scrolling through a screen or just kind of receiving information in the same format, and it's a totally different process.
J -
Well, that's interesting. Yeah. One of the things I was reading, too, it's talking about, like, the different hormones that your body releases when you're reading a story, rather than, like, passively, like...
S -
Yeah.
J -
...or something like that, you know? And one of them, you'll appreciate this, says that in the mom is oxytocin, and when you connect to the characters, you bond them, and that builds...and I've seen this in my own life, in my kids, is, it builds empathy. Which is one of the...
S -
Yes.
J -
But, it's so needed in our society today, you know. But you are able to put yourself in someone else's shoes through a story that you can't do...
S -
Yes.
J -
...through a textbook.
S -
I think that's one of the huge gifts of stories. Yeah. They can pass you to see the world in a different way through someone else's eyes.
J -
Yeah. And, yeah, I feel like you're there, in a bond with them, so, yeah. They become your friends, these characters. And you talk about that in the book, too, so let's just jump there. When you were little, what were some of the books that were the most impactful for you? Who did you bond with?
S -
Like, there's this somewhat standard answer, but I think there's a reason for it. Anne of Green Gables. And I say that because, I actually talked with a couple friends and we decided that, in many ways, Anne of Green Gables formed a generation of girls. And I, looking...as a kid, I just loved them because Anne was, you know, she was, adventurous and imaginative, and, you know, I would read Anne of Gables and then walk into the back yard and I would name the trees. And, you know, I'd have my secret place to sit, and you know, everything I saw became something like it was for Anne. The lake of shining waters. Or leaf golden pond, with the, you know...I...but it helped me to...what I realized, later on, was that she was teaching me to see the world in a meaningful way to engage with Creation. To engage with my surroundings as gifts. As wonder. And, I think that book, or those books, I should say, have such a capacity to kindle wonder in those who read them, and to make kids who either go back and interact with nature, with their surroundings, in a very different way. Cause it makes them alive and interesting.
And I think another aspect of the Anne books that I loved is, Anne just loves to learn, and so learning is not some name that's onerous. It's a... adventurous. And she's curious. And she quotes poems. And she uses big words. And she, you know, she works hard at those tasks. And I think as a young girl, it was just such a good example to look towards, this imaginative, curious, beauty-loving soul, moved into her world in curiosity and creativity, and so I do, I love the Anne books, and I think it's more than just a love for nostalgic story. I think there's actually some quite observable qualities in those stories that make them amazing, great stories to shape the girls who are reading them.
So definitely, the Anne of Green Gables books. There are so many, and I'm one of those people that, like, I start to struggle once I think about it. I love Elizabeth Goudge. I write books about books and you ask my favorite book and I'm like...I read a book? I love Elizabeth cause you find in the same thing. There's a lovely book called The Little White Horse, and it's about an orphaned girl...oh, do you have this? And the orphaned girl...I have the same coffee... yes, who comes to her guardian's house in this valley of death, and it's a story of good and evil, and truth. The way that history shapes us, and, but it's about beauty and adventure and I just, I love it as one of the most lovely...I just thrilled through that story when I read it as a kid.
We...I mean, as a group, with my siblings, we did a lot of reading, like, by Robert Louis Stevenson. My brothers loved the Red Wall books, we read those a lot. I think that the books I am fated to love...we actually read the Story Girl out loud together. Like, I had a...there was a period, which, when I would encourage my brothers to come let me read to them, but I'd make them tea and something like sweet tea. And then we'd all come sit and read, and then we'd have, you know, some pretending. And we did a lot of them like that. And I think, as I think about, there's standout ones like, like there was with ??? the Black Forest, like, Anne of Green Gables.
But there's just this whole collection of stories like Robert Louis Stevenson, the Red Walls. Let's see, I just need my book in front of me. We loved Cheaper by the Dozen. We loved I loved Joan Akin. The Worlds of Willoughby Chase. But they were just these books...I remember, just reading, oh, there's one that it was, The Journeyman, by Elizabeth Yates, about...oh, that's a good one. She's a lovely writer...about a boy who's apprentice to an artist in early Colonial day in America. And it's a story, so it's a fascinating story of Colonial times, and how there are these journeymen artists who would travel to the newly established homes and paint murals and beauty into these homes that were just established, kind of in this new territory. But it's also a story of, like, what is the worth of art? What is the worth of beauty in a pragmatic world. And I think, when I look back on these stories I was reading, as a young kid, and think, wow, this is really shaping my value for things like artistry, beauty, what good do these play in a world of pragmatic work and need and... yeah. So, those are a few. Just to start. Like, I can search out my list and come up with about a dozen more, but...
J -
Right. No, those are great. And those are ones, I think, that, you know, transcend time and...
S -
Yes.
J -
...tend to work well. So, you know, you mentioned Story Girl, and that's when I...I was joking about it at the beginning. But even though it's called Story Girl, there are a lot of...she's with her male cousins, and so there's this...
S -
Yes.
J -
...for boys in that book too. And people get intimidated by the title, and they're like, why should I read this with my son? You know? And I'm like, no, they'll like it.
S -
Oh, yes.
J -
Trust me.
S -
But we are very a much a house full of boys with...we've read both books both ways, so the boys definitely had to read Pride and Prejudice with us. And then...
J -
That's good. ??? Every boy should know how to deal ???
S -
Absolutely.
J -
And then, for, like, Anne of Green Gables, you know, I'm like, well, I don't know, you know, what my son will think of this book. And so I read it to them, and then we went and saw the play of it.
S -
Oh, fun.
J -
We had learned about...Tennyson was our poet, like, the year before that, too. So, by the lady of Shallot, separate. And anyway, we're watching the play and we're in the scene where she's reciting that, and my son, he was like seven at the time. He leans over, and he's like, Mom, this is the poem. We learned this poem. This is Tennyson. I was like...
S -
So wonderful.
J -
I didn't think they were paying attention that day, you know what I mean? So, like, way more is getting into them than we can even think or imagine.
S -
Absolutely.
J -
It just takes time for...
S -
Yes.
J -
...and we don't always see the fruit of that. Like, we're talking about, before it happens. It's not something that you can easily measure how ideas are shaping character. There's no, like, SAT question for that. This is something that's gonna change their personhood. So if you can just talk a little bit about, kind of, the power of stories to shape a person?
S -
Yeah, absolutely. So, I think that...gosh, especially in a world where we are so prone to measure things and it's so important that we understand the bigger, I think, shaping forces of story and imaginational children, because I think that stories actually, very deeply form children, not just to...I mean, if you look at the statistics, it's just fascinating on how much a vocabulary makes a difference to children, its educational capacity. So, you know, what is the single best we can do for a child. Read to them and talk to them. Like, those are not...???
J -
A Charlotte Mason education. Right. Yes. Yes.
S -
I mean, when I was reading some of these research essays, I just wanted to walk into the street and hand children books, because it brings the whole self alive, but what it does, I think, is...I think stories shape identity first. So I think that one of the first things children are born asking is who am I? What am I meant to do? And, I think we often...
J -
I think it's often, still, I'm still asking myself that.
S -
Well, there was...I mean, in apologetics worldview stuff, it's the ultimate questions. Where am I? What is my destiny? What is this for? What does it mean to live the good life? ???
J -
...to figure that answer out instead of, you know, world doll, like when I was little. But, yeah, I'm still trying to figure that out.
S -
And I sent that since every bit of story this child is encountering is teaching him how to answer those questions. And I think that one of the things that stories do, is they teach us to see ourselves as taking part in a story. So, you can see why it's kind of a blank, you know, meaningless field of thing, where it's...and then it's just happened to you, and there's matter around you. Or you can see it as a narrative, with...has a beginning, and an end. It has a purpose. And that, if you understand this story, well, then you must have a part to play within it. And I think that what stories do is they teach us to encounter our own lives in a narrative way.
And so I think that one of the first things stories do is they give children the possibility or the invitation to see themselves a hero or heroine in the story and...of their own lives and their own world. So they understand themselves as living something that will have...their choices will have impact others. They can change the world. They can create something new. When you read stories to children, I think it gives them that capacity to understand the world in that way. And I think, to encounter, I would say, ultimately, the story of God in that way. To see if this is not just information we take in about, you know...we don't just take in information in our spiritual lives. It forms our identity, it forms our destiny. It forms the way we live forward in the world.
So, another part, I think, is, I think that we often throw these concepts at children. Like, be good, be nice. Or be patient. I'm still an adult and I don't always, you know, have exact answers about what that looks like. But, I know what it means for Lucy Pendency to do brave. And I know what it looks like for Henry to be sacrificing. And I know what it looks like...if you give children these images of characters who are embodying the qualities you want them to live out, then it gives them this concrete way to imagine what it means to be patient or good, and then to go forward and know how to embody that in their own lives. So, I think that's just a couple of ways that stories deeply form how we put ourselves...what we think is meaningful, what we think it means to live, maybe, for like, in the world. What it means to be good, and moral. So, I mean, I figure that, since stories are pretty much shaping our ethical and moral expectation, the time was small.
J -
And that's, I think, a key reason why we have to be very careful, and I think people, though, can sometimes go to the other extreme, of looking at, okay, books are extremely powerful. They have ideas. I say it's like sometimes...
S -
Yes.
J -
...dynamite, right? You don't know what idea's gonna take and that's not necessarily our job, and I think, especially homeschool moms, we love to point out, oh, did you see how they acted in... you know, we should really act like that. Or we've been struggling with fighting, let's look at how the kids in Cheaper by the Dozen... ??? got along with each other. Let me point out...right? Rather than letting the ideas form in the child themselves, and they're gonna take out which ones... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. So, work provided this literature-rich education, but the kids are take in what they get out of that story. And it is not our job to point out the things that we think they need. That's the Holy Spirit's job, which we partner with when we're teaching our kids.
S -
Yes. That's teaching them.
J -
Yeah.
S -
And it's a reason, no matter what they're actually...you know, what they know just particularly that day. The whole story's forming an idea in them. So, you know, whether they notice that day that the people were nice and kind and didn't fight with each other, they're developing expectation of characters and people who are nice and kind. And you have the capacity to speak kindly and graciously to each, and...I mean, there's...the story's constantly forming this inner world, from which we draw our expectations of what is expected of us. So, in that sense, I figure, just outfitting this inner expectation of what does the world look like? What do people...how ought people to act? And stories outfit our expectations in that sense. And so, I think children then draw from that, the more great stories they encounter, the more material they have to work with, basically. To think, well, what should I do in this situation? When you have this background of characters, you can look at in your mind and think, whether it's consciously or not, to draw from, this expectation of what goodness looks like, or what it means to be nice, or how ought I to... you know, how should I respond in this situation where I could lie or not?
Yeah, I think it just...it has...it stocks their minds with, you know, people, in a way, who are models to them. I mean, there's a way which I think story characters become living friends in the imaginations of children, a lot of children.
J -
Oh, yeah.
S -
I mean, I definitely have, kind of, these moments, I think, what would Anne of Green Gables do in this instance? I just finished Bleak House for the second time, by Charles Dickens, and I just, I love the character, Esther Summerson, how Esther handled this. There's a reality to that that's, I think, very dear and very real.
J -
I do that too. Mine is Marmie.
S -
Aww. Yes.
J -
I'm like, what would Marmie do in this situation? I am not like her, most of the time, but every once in a while...
S -
It comes through. I feel like you do it all onto that, in this day and age, we can’t fix the world.
J -
Maybe we should make some shirts. Popular.
Today's episode is brought to you by A Gentle Feast. A Gentle Feast is a complete curriculum for grades one through twelve that is family centered, inspired by Ms. Mason's programs and philosophy, and rooted in books, beauty, and Biblical truth. You can find out how smooth and easy days are closer than you think at AGentleFeast.com.
So is there anything you would advise parents not to do? I was talking a little bit about the moralizing and pointing it out, but are there any other things that you would say, watch out for this? If you wanna cultivate a love of reading.
S -
Yeah. I think it's such a dance because there's this dance between, I think, delight and discipline. So, on the one hand, like one of the things I'm so grateful for is that reading was not a forced thing. It's, you know, if we just weren't there, then it was okay. You would go play. I mean, don't...if you want a child to love it, don't tie them down to a desk and say, read this book. You know, what you want to create is a relationship with books as living, as enjoyable, as something that will nourish and strengthen them throughout their lives.
And so I think that there's a real sense in which I think read...you know, my mom was really good at picking out books for us that interested us, so, you know, the ones my brother...one of my brothers had a hard time reading and he wanted to read a biography of this particular figure. And my mom was like, oh, my goodness, this is not a biography I want to read with you. But he loved this, and so they sat, painstakingly together, and sounded out page after page, for weeks. And it was way above his level at that point, but he was fascinated by it. And so I think, you know, give your children things to read that will delight and engage them, as people, as souls, how they're interested.
On the other hand, I definitely had my Nancy Drew gears, and they became where my mom would go, okay, you read Nancy Drew. And then you have to read one biography, one fiction, and one science before you can read another Nancy Drew. So, it is this balance between, you know, teach...make it delightful. And I do like it that my parents were never above bribing us. Some good, you know, wholesome bribery. Hot chocolate and pillows, and you can draw while you read a book. Well, of course we liked reading time. But I do think...I mean, my husband and I have been talking about this cause, you know, we just are so aware of how tempting screens are, in this day and age, and how it's such an easy way to relax, but we really want to create screen and culture in our homes, so, even for us, like, to light some candles at night, to have something nice to drink, and making a reading evening. There's a way in which sending a seed helps to create the world around it, so that you're...this thing that kinda takes hold.
So, I think, make it delightful. Make it lovely. Make it exciting. But also, don't be afraid to make it a discipline. To make it that habit. I think that's the balance between the two anyway.
J -
Yeah. And I like what...I haven' heard that idea...I love that idea that your mom...about the Nancy Drew books. And I gotta say my seventeen-year-old read them. She learned that these are great ways to unwind. And when they're, like, in a super big project. But, like, that's not all she reads, right? But not that your mom said, you cannot read these anymore.
S -
No.
J -
I think parents will, they can be afraid. Like, if I...twaddle, is the word in the Charlotte Mason world of books that's not your high-brow literature, right? That, you know, if they read this twaddle, then all they're gonna want is candy...book candy, all the time. You know? And for...
S -
Yes.
J -
...reign in their appetites, we need to train them on Brussel sprouts. And I'm like, no, that's not how you get a kid to eat their vegetables, right? You, like, throw a little bit of cheese on them. And then you're like, work it in, you know? Yeah.
S -
Pitch the meat and then promise a little desert, then you bench it.
J -
Yep. You have to work it all in, like, to the Brussel sprouts, kind of thing. I mean, like, I like 'em when they're, like, deep-fried, but not, like, I can't eat them boiled. You know, it's about them too, right? It's how you present the Brussel sprouts, so, you know the higher...books that are harder, I've noticed, like, if I sit down, like you were saying, with my kid, and then that together, rather than going okay, you're assigned to read this book. Then the tears will come, and, I can't do it, it's so hard, blah, blah, blah. But if share, like, my enthusiasm, and we read, maybe the first chapter together, and we talk about it, and then, you know, I slowly...
S -
A little companionship there. Yeah.
J -
Right.
S -
Well, I think he got through... one of the first things you should do as a parent, if you want your kid to be a reader, you should probably be a reader.
J -
Yep.
S -
They're always watching. And they want to do what you want to do. No matter what it is. And that seems like they...I talk a lot in Book Girl about the reading life. It is a culture. It is a life. It is a way of relating to the world. What I think is different, in some ways then, I know I keep saying this, but I think I'm just...the more I study, the more I'm impacted by the way we are just becoming more and more of a screen dependent culture. iPhone culture. And, if that becomes the habitual...this is what I turn to when I'm sad. This is what I turn to when I'm lonely. This is what I turn to when I'm bored. And we're creating a whole different way of being and seeing and learning, but I'm pretty ready to argue, is, is not willing to shame that thing to deep thinking creative compassionate people in the same way that having space to pray, having space to be quiet, having space to read a story and engage with it deeply.
Yeah, so I think it is about creating, just, and atmosphere of...a lifestyle of reading and...which, I also think reading suggests a lifestyle if there's place to think, or if there's quiet moments. We don't need to be busy all the time. Actually, a lot of studies show that what children need more than anything else is to be bored. And adults...
J -
Quarantine has really helped with that, though. We've had lots of boring days.
S -
Absolutely. Yeah. I think we all have vied for the...at least, we have here...with the comments we get on gardening, so I think you'd love reading.
J -
Right. I do. I do wonder how this whole COVID thing will impact how people do education and parenting.
S -
I think it'll have some wonderful things, and so, I just...
J -
Yeah, me too. I'm like, cool. There's actually plenty for you...and like you were talking about, the screens. I do see that, even if, in my own children, my own family, you know, now that they're teenagers, we have that, and trying to navigate that and teach that. You can't not have a phone, right? But...
S -
Right. Right.
J -
...are you turning to it, like you were saying, because you're bored, because you're sad, because what happens is, the more you do that, the more isolated you become. The more lonely and sad you feel, and then the ??? And then you have a whole group of people doing it, and then it's this whole group, cultural, thing.
S -
Yeah, and you're not engaging with your life. You're not engaging with nature, with each other. You know, stuff like cooking and books and, you know, the stuff that actually makes life rich, and teaches us about God's goodness. It's a big thing.
J -
And in Charlotte Mason...in her last book, she wrote that in World War I. And she really was, you know, discussing, like, this, you know, she didn't live to see what would happen, but, you know...but, if we don't want this to ever happen again, right? We have to have a society of people who read and think. And are able to wrestle with these hard ideas and make choices for themselves. You know, it's about being a great citizen and person as well.
S -
Yes.
J -
But unfortunately, you know...
S -
Yeah.
J -
??? But, yeah, I think, with, you know, especially with all the cultural changes and things that are going on related to COVID, and whatnot, too, you know?
S -
Yeah.
J -
People have fears and they're scared. And so, can you talk a little bit about the power of stories to help them with fear, but also just, the cultural, kind of, changes and things that are happening? How that helps them navigate all that?
S -
Well, I think the thing that stories do...I would recommend that everybody go read Tolkien's essay on...he would talk on fairy stories. Because, yeah, it's an amazing essay, and I think it's really fascinating to study Tolkien. I actually studied him as part of my theology course. I did my dissertation on Tolkien and the stories he wrote, because I think that he's a fascinating figure, because he emerged from the first world war, with most of...many of his friends killed. You know, he watched a world decimated and destroyed.
And, much of the literature that emerges from that period is...it was called the lost generation. Because they came back to work. They didn't have land. They didn't have the same landmarks that told them...they lost landmarks of belief. The lives lost. What...where was God in this war? They landmarks of meaning, of...and so, there's a very, there's a real lostness and hedonism that follows with the roaring twenties and kind of this..the flapper and the jazz age, and you see...I mean, it's the Great Gatsby. Amazing literature. A literature that's ultimately about despair. And then you have little good old Tolkien over here, who emerges from the trenches, watching, you know, the world literally blown apart around him. And he writes a story about people who are caught in darkness, but who understand that light is always coming. That there's always a beauty that began as...there's a goodness that's...we're being asked to keep journeying towards a belief that there were, you know, that, the way you deal with darkness is by having hope in a light that's beyond the darkness. I'd say Samwise Gamgee from Mordor, and like, this is the passage, saying that Sam looked up and he saw a star, and he saw a light and high beauty, beyond the touch of darkness. And, so I think that one of the things that stories do for us, I think, stories like Tolkien's story. They present to us the narrative of a world that is both dark and broken, but is meant for beauty, and it will be redeemed. And they show us the part that we can play within that, and one of the things that Tolkien says about, that he says about fairy stories particularly, what he means by that is, that, I think it would include any story like his, ??? or fairy tales in general. But these stories that kind of show us the possibility of, what he calls the miraculous grace entering into the darkness of our time. Whatever time we're caught up in. And he says, and not since stories, you know, that even, the...what does he call it? Eucatra... So, he calls it eucatastrophe, which is the opposite of catastrophe. It's goodness breaking in and changing the story, so that a happy ending is possible. And he calls it the unexpected grace, and he says, insofar as it reminds us that grace is possible in darkness, it is a form of the Gospel. And I think that that is one of the great things that stories give us is hope. Is the capacity to see beyond the circumstances that we're mired in the present, and to understand there's a larger story at play and it's one in which goodness is invading. Goodness is still possible, and that we can be drawn out of the suffering we're in, or the doubt, or the fear, or the...
J -
Yeah.
S -
...whatever. Into the hope for this goodness that is still coming. That we'll remake the world. And by so doing, it allows us to believe that our actions, in the middle of the darkness, will have the capacity to create and bring beauty. So, if you don't think your actions have any consequence to bringing light or goodness in the world, then there's really no reason to act well or to be hopeful or to be good or be brave. Actions through meaning if there's not a story, a narrative, that tells you a beginning and end, and this is what your actions did part in this goodness. Is redemption. Is the healing of the world. And you begin it by loving this person. By creating life in this darkness. By baking a loaf of bread on a day when you're depressed. By reaching out to a neighbor. I mean, it's...again, stories show us the significance of very small daily acts of faithfulness. And I think, yeah, I think that's why we need stories. Especially in dark times. Is they narrate us back into hope and excellence?
J -
Yeah. And I love the chapters in your book on the imagination and I heard you talk about this before, on Instagram, and some of your podcasts. The importance of fairy stories. And I get a lot of push back sometimes, from people who are like, I don't know, you know, this is just too imaginative, it's too playful. It's not real life. You know, I wanna just teach my kids the practical and the here and now, and not, you know...and Charlotte Mason talks about imagination as a habit. She puts it up there with the habit of attention, the habit of ???, the habit of imagination. That it's something that we do actually want to cultivate in our children and ourselves.
S -
Absolutely. And the...
J -
Using that habit to make...it's something provable. It doesn't just happen. I mean, most of your imaginativity, you can squash it pretty fast.
S -
Oh, you can so easily squash it. That's the danger of this world. But, I think that if we...we just don't understand unless we really study is this idea that anything imaginative or fanciful or storied is not true. This is a very modern idea. The ancients were not so bothered. You know, if you look at Scripture, it's poetry, it's drama, it's story, it's, you know, parable, it's everything. I think the ancients much more were people of story, of image and symbol of word, because they understood, you know, everything that is ultimate...God... He's beyond what we can see. He's expressed to us in the world He's made. We see Him reflected in beauty and the wonder of nature and creation.
But imagination is one of the ways that we connect that and we understand. Lewis called imagination is the ordinate of meaning. So imagination helps us to see why things in the world can be a meaningful place. And I think that we, in the modern age, which is been really influenced by scientific materialism, which is that the only thing that is real is what you can touch and measure. Which is actually a world view that is very opposed to...
J -
Right.
S -
And yet, idea of there being a spiritual reality? I mean, the spiritual reality is something that we use our imagination to engage with. The idea of God is something we use our imagination to engage with. This is the realm of spiritual and moral information, is God interacting with our capacity to imagine? I think God, as the first Creator, He was imagining the world of speaking into being. And we participate by being image-bearers. By being people capable of imagining and creating return. Tolkien talks a lot about how we are made to be co-creators. But, we have to cultivate imagination if we're capable...if we're going to be capable of creating new things. And I think that's so important, because how are you going to bring change about in the world if you can't imagine the possibility of a better world? A new home? Of, a place where people are happy. A place where people are loved and healed. You imagine these things, and then you work towards creating them. So, and there's so much to say on that subject. Cause I think it is one that we don't realize how much we're influenced by, profoundly, unpursued influences that we think, oh, I'm just practical. No, no, no. Actually, God made us to be imaginative, embody poetic storytelling beings, and this is one of the ways we know what is true about the world.
J -
Yeah, we've lost some of that mystery and wonder that...
S -
Yeah. Very much so.
J -
Yeah. And we need to get back to that for sure. And I think, you know, we're all pretty familiar with fairy stories, magic, kind of imaginative stories for children. What about romance? Do you have any favorite adult-ish fairy...
S -
Imaginative stories? I mean, obviously, I believe every person alive should read Lord of the Rings. I do love Harry Potter. I think adults should read Harry Potter. It's interesting...
J -
It's pretty basic. Like, you're gonna read it and go, oh my goodness, this is like, for little children. Why am I wasting my time with it?
S -
It starts out that way, yes.
J -
Right. Yeah. But, when you get to, like, book four, you're like, oh, this is a real meaty work of literature here.
S -
By the time you get to book seven, you're like, wait, I think she just made pretty profound theological statement.
J -
Yes. You have to stick with it. So, I think a lot of adults don't read, like, book one, and be like, oh, this is childish. I don't need to...why would you recommend that, like, someone read through that and, like an adult?
S -
An adult? I think it doesn't hurt us to read good children's books. But I also think that one of these I consider interesting by the Harry Potter series is, I studied it as well, as part of my theology training. Oddly enough, at Oxford.
J -
That's so cool. Cause you can imagine while you're in class. And like, oh, what would Harry do? Yeah.
S -
I think what's really fascinating to me is, I was fascinated that why do stories connect? And why did...why does rolling story connect with a whole generation of child readers? And I think that one of the reasons is that because she is confronting things like evil and death, and she's teaching us, she is giving children what is basically a deeply Christian idea of sacrificial love. I mean, throughout the Harry Potter series, there's this developed idea of what is the power of love? And what is better? To be powerful? To have the capacity to just be dead and to be personally full of power and able to dominate others? Or is it better to be someone who gives up your life in the service of others, who grows in the service of friends? Who is willing, as Harry's mother did, to sacrifice herself for Harry. Than what...I love how Rowling traces out what that sacrifice accomplished in the life of Harry and thus the life of the rest of the world.
And so, in many ways, I'm, like, reading lots of articles about the Harry Potter series while I was studying it. I mean, kind of fascinated to find an interview on MTV, which is a very secular, you know, website, talking about Harry Potter as a resurrection story. And I was like, wait, this is profoundly...you know, on a friendly pop culture site. But I think that what she's done for readers is she has presented what are deeply religious ideas of love and goodness and their power to overcome evil. And also, she's really written a level which, I think, especially, getting the sixth and seventh books, you see what is basically the tug between the fallen self and the redeemed self. And what does it look like to be willing to lay down your own desire for power and ??? bring about the good of other people. So I think, on so many levels, I think it is a, just a really, a really meaty and good series. I understand, you know, if the...I know there's fans...attentions... parents feel that...though I think...especially if we're talking about adult readers. I think it's an excellent series to that age group.
Gosh, a fantasy series. I'm...it's funny, I'm very much into Tolkien and Lewis. I love Lewis. I mean, so, I think it's totally got faces, it's a fascinating...you know, and I love the fact that, you know, that that's more griefness, but...cause that's what his specialty was. But, I enjoy talking strange Mr. Laurel, by ??? just cause I think it's a fascinating world. And she writes in the...she writes as if she's writing a nineteenth-century novel. So, it's fascinating. It's just great imagination.
J -
I'm gonna go on a...I might edit this out later. I'm gonna go off the deep end here, but, I loved the Hunger Games. Like, as an adult.
S -
I read the first one. And I really enjoyed that one. I haven't read the rest.
J -
Well, she just came out with a new one, too, that's, like, a prequel, that is fascinating in our modern political landscape. That, yeah. It's, you know, it's taking yourself out of the world that you're in, right? And imagining...and that one is not, like, an idealized world, right?
S -
Exactly.
J -
Yeah, and it kinda makes you go, okay, well, that, I don't...we don't want that. What do we have to do in the present, and up in this kind of place, or...and again, like we were talking about with Harry Potter, it shows you the characterization of, you know, good versus evil, and what can happen if people are...their sinful desires for greed and power.
S -
Yeah.
J -
How goodness and sacrifice can combat that. Right, cause that...I'm the type that, yeah...
S -
Well, I think that's what it taps into is these fantasies...a lot of fantasy stories now that places that we wrestle culturally with goodness and evil and hatred and self-interest and sacrifice. And I think those are...those stories are often the places that is the culture, we're discussing what it looks like to be moral or brave or...
J -
...that there's, you know, this tension between the muggles, the people, right? They're not magical at all, and the pureblood, where all wizards and, you know, if you're a half breed, if you are...one parent was a wizard...we can't accept you. And so it does kind of go into this whole concept of prejudice and family lineage and how we treat people that are different. You know what I mean? All these things that we're struggling with, as adults, right now, that our kids can see, and wrestle through that in a way that makes sense to them, and for us to have compassion as adults, too, I think is really key, so.
S -
Absolutely. And I think it was Lewis and that a lot of written children's books should be...will have an impact in capacity to move an adult as well as a child, because, it's not...we shouldn't be giving children things that we don't think are worthy. So, we wanna give children books that are morally excellent and literarily beautiful. We just give them a very simplified version for them to learn, but that should still bear relevant information for us as adults too, so sometimes you can read children's books and it kinda strips away all the other distractions. You go, oh. This is true. This is what goodness is. Okay. It can be a simplification of argument in a way that's very healthy, I think.
J -
Oh yeah, there's so many times when I'm reading my kid's books and I'll just start crying. Like, it...you know, it's some, like, little simple thing. I'm like, it's like, oh my gosh, Mom is, like, so weird. And they all start laughing. What happens now. But, you know, it's like, because it takes that truth and brings it about in a simple way.
S -
Yes. This is so pointed and immediate. Yeah.
J -
And we were reading, it was Heidi, last year.
S -
Oh, yeah.
J -
Just her faith and her willingness to put up with these really hard things. And it, like... people move me with some of the struggles I was going through personally. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm crying over Heidi.
S -
Gosh, if Heidi can do it, I can too.
J -
She had joy, even when...and prayed to God when she didn't feel like it. I can do it too. You know, like, I mean, it really speaks...
S -
There's this clarity that's beautiful in a way.
J -
Do you have any closing thoughts or ideas for the people listening to get into books for themselves and their children?
S -
Yeah, absolutely. I think that the thing I just wanna say over and over again is, the reading life, it's a beautiful thing. When I wrote the introduction to my...to Book Girl. I'll paraphrase it, but I was very pregnant with William. He's my first child. And...
J -
I'm so impressed with, by the way. Like you're finishing your degree and writing a book and having a baby. Like wow. That's impressive.
S -
Thank you. It was done. The book and baby were kinda grown together. But, I remember sitting on the couch and trying to finish writing and my brain wasn't working. But I was also kind of at that space of thinking, being anxious about, you know, oh my gosh, I'm having a child. What am I doing? What, can I bring a child into a broken world? What am I going to do to help her navigate it? And just realizing, okay, this, actually, this reading life that I'm writing about, this is one of the great gifts I want to give her, because...I write the introduction, I think, you know, the...I want you to know, I want you to have beauty. I want you to have a heart and soul outfitted with those good and beautifuls that you are capable of imagining. A whole appealed world. I want you to know that that is possible. That this is your origin, and this is what you're meant for. I want you to know how to be brave in the darkness, and how to fight the battle. And I want you to know you're not alone.
And I think that those are truths that reading teaches us. Reading, you know, reading these great stories, our hearts are outfitted with images of goodness and beauty that are...you know, I feel like we have one of the, you know, the...in our distracted and busy and extroverted world, we have whole worlds in our souls and our hearts, and I think the interior world, the inner soul of the person, is what we live to make decisions from, but we often ignore it. And reading is something that outfits that in our world. I think it outfits it with beautiful things. I mean, the novels that I've read, they give me, they constantly bring me hope. They constantly image to me what is possible when I've lost, you know, the ability to believe that the beautiful home or raising my children to be whole and healthy, or whatever it is that seems beyond it, these great stories can really help us to see...they teach us how to be brave. They teach us what it looks like to be brave in the darkness. To be creators. To be those who keep going, who, you know, who hold on till the last minute, and fight the good fight.
And I think also, this teaches us we're not alone. And I think that those are the truths I don't want just for William, I want it for everyone. And I think that it's...I think words are one of the great ways that God gave us to be rich. To be rich in wonder. To be rich in knowing His world. And I think that the words we capture will shake the whole way we see the world. I think that's why, in Scripture, we're constantly told to read, to, you know, remember. Read Scripture. Read these words. It's not just, you know, for a rule to prove that we're righteous. It's because words revive us. They constantly show us again what it means to hope, to yearn, to love. To create. To be full of wonder. I think those are just the gifts that I would wish to every single person in the world, and that's why I think the reading life is such an important gift to pass on, so.
J -
Yeah, that's great. That is so encouraging. And I think, too, there's, you know, so many new homeschool parents, and where, you know, it is kind of overwhelming to think about. But, you know, I just...people are like, so what should I do to...I'm like, if you do nothing else, read and talk...
S -
Read lots of books. Talk good conversations.
J -
You don't have to stress about, you know, this curriculum or that, or these work...like, just start simple. Read and talk, read and talk, and that's gonna shape, like you were saying...
S -
It'll shape people who can think and love and dream.
J -
Right. Yeah. You won't always do that right away. But, it will completely change them. And...
S -
Growing. It's a garden. It grows up in the soil. Little seeds.
J -
And it changes you as well, as a person. And so, you can't grow as a person if your kids are, you know, sitting in front of, like, a screen, doing virtuals all day like... ought to be reading books and engaging in the conversations.
S -
Absolutely. Yeah.
J -
Yeah. Right. And so, I always ask people at the end if they have a favorite Charlotte Mason quote. And I wanted to share one. It's from A Philosophy of Education, so this is the book, her last volume that she wrote after World War I, and this is...the chapter's called The Good and Evil Nature of a Child. It says, as for literature, to introduce children to literature, is to instill them in a very rich and glorious kingdom, to bring a ??? holiday to their doors, to lay before them a feast exquisitely served, but they must learn to know literature by being familiar with it from the very first.
And so I love this picture of...that we're giving them, you know, the feast. Obviously, that's the thing with my curriculum. But, a holiday, a kingdom. We're...this is what food is for, but like what you've been talking about, and that it's something that they're familiar with. it's not, okay, well when you get older and you can handle these, like, meatier books, then we'll add these to your life. Yeah, right.
S -
From the very beginning, is...yeah. It's part of their world.
J -
Right, and I think, you know, some people can take that the other extreme and be like, okay, well then we can't read Goodnight Moon. It's not what she's saying. It's picture books very much have their value for little children. Yes. Very much. Yeah. But that, so. You are, I think, kinda sprinkling this in. It's the, like you were saying with the garden, it's these little seeds then, over time ???
S -
That'll grow into a beautiful garden. Absolutely.
J -
Right. So thank you so much for taking the time to join us. How can people connect with you? I know they can find Book Girl on Amazon, but I'm assuming you have your other places.
S -
Yes. So, I write and do all sorts of things, and have a newsletter at SarahClarkson.com. And then, you can find me on Instagram, which is where I do a lot of read-alouds and do a lot of...more regular writing, under Sarah Wanders.
J -
Okay. Well, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.
S -
Aw, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Julie -
Thank you for joining us today on the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I would love to meet you in person. All of the Great Homeschool Conventions have been rescheduled to 2021. Go to GreatHomeschoolConventions.com to find a convention near you.
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