CM 3 Episode #27 The Role of the Student in CM Education with Julie H. Ross and Shay Kemp

CM 3 Episode #27 The Role of the Student in CM Education with Julie H. Ross and Shay Kemp

Show Notes:

Meet Julie :

Julie H Ross believes that every child needs a feast of living ideas to grow intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. As a former school teacher, Curriculum Coordinator, and Assistant Director of a Homeschool Academy, Julie Ross has worked with hundreds of students and parents over the past 20 years. She has also been homeschooling her own five children for over a decade. Julie Ross developed the Charlotte Mason curriculum, A Gentle Feast, to provide parents with the tools and resources needed to provide a rich and abundant educational feast full of books, beauty, and Biblical truth. Julie lives in South Carolina. When she’s not busy homeschooling, reading children’s books, hiking, or writing curriculum, you can find her taking a nap.

Meet Shay:

Shay is a homeschooling mom of 5 who loves enjoying the learning journey with her children and encouraging others in their paths of faith, parenting and homeschooling. She believes that the best conversations happen when you are comfortable on the front porch and blogs from there at passersbywelcome.com.


Self-education is the only possible education; the rest is mere veneer laid on the surface of a child's nature.”

Charlotte Mason

“...my object is to show that the chief function of the child--his business in the world during the first six or seven years of his life--is to find out all he can, about whatever comes under his notice, by means of his five senses...”

Charlotte Mason

CM Motto Coloring Page

Podcast Episode The Role of the Teacher Season 2 Episode 12

Show Transcript:

CM EP 27



Julie -

Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show, a podcast dedicated to discussing Miss Mason's philosophy, principles, and methods. It is our hope that each episode will leave you inspired and offer practical wisdom on how to provide this rich living education in your modern home school. So pull up a chair. We're glad you're here.

In today's episode I'm gonna be talking to my BFF Shay Kemp, who, if you listen to the podcast for a while, you've heard our conversations before. They are always hilarious and we have just such a great time chatting together. In today's episode, we're gonna be talking about the role of the student. Charlotte Mason said self-education is the only possible education. The rest is mere veneer laid on the surface of a child's nature.

And it's really key, if you haven't already, I highly encourage you to listen to the episode that we did back in Season Two, called The Role of the Teacher, and that was Season Two episode twelve, because this really is two sides of the same coin and you can't have one without the other. So before diving in and learning about the full...the student, I encourage you to make sure you have already listened to the episode on the role of the teacher.

And if you have a kind of a firm grasp of how the role of a teacher is so unique in a Charlotte Mason education, then you'll be ready to jump into this always fun and interesting conversation with me and Shay on the role of the student.

Today's episode of the Charlotte Mason Show was brought to you by Medi-share. Find out more about this affordable Christian alternative to traditional health insurance at medeshare.com.

The Charlotte Mason Show would also like to thank their sponsor, Operation Christmas Child. Now more than ever, children need hope. As the world struggles with the coronavirus pandemic, we want to let them know that God loves them and has not forgotten them. The best way to get involved is to pack a shoebox yourself. As you specially select each item, packing a shoebox becomes a blessing for you, as well as the child who receives it. Be sure to include a personalized note and photo. If packing our traditional shoebox isn't an option for you this year, we can do it for you. Build a shoebox online. You can find out more at samaritanspurse.org/occ. Again that's samaritanspurse.org/occ.

Now on to the show.




Hi hey everyone. Hey Shay!

Shay -

Hello, how are you?

Julie -

Good. I miss chatting with you, it's been a while.

S -

It has been a while, yes.

J -

We've had a lot of life happening so. It tends to happen.

S -

Yes, it does, and I'm sure everybody out there can relate. This is the year for life to happen.

J -

Yes, but life happens on top of the craziness that's already happening, it's...I think it's exponential, the grief that you feel. Yeah.

Well, we recorded an episode, gosh, it's been a while ago. I'll put the episode of the show notes. I can't even remember what episode it was, on the role of the teacher. So this is kind of like the other side of that coin, and that is the role of a student in a Charlotte Mason education. So you really have to have a deep understanding, I think, of what both of those are. You can't have one without the other.

S -

Yes.

J -

And if you try to adapt your Charlotte Mason philosophy in your home and just focus on one of them, you're not going to have the complete picture, so if you're only focusing on, okay, the role of the student is that they are responsible for their self-education. Well, that leads to unschooling. And that's not what's remains in its right? And if you have, okay, well, here's the role of the teacher. The role of the teacher is to, you know, acquire the living books, to come up with...

S -

Up with ideas, yes.

J -

Schedule. Right. To make sure that their home is full of ideas, to work on the atmosphere for home and all the things we talked about in that episode. But you're not...your student's not doing their part of that work. That is a huge burden on you, and they're not going to have the results that you would want in your education, right? So you have to kind of understand both.

S -

And I think that's one of the things that is so beautiful, that this is actually philosophy and not just throwing a bunch of things at a wall to see what sticks. You know? I mean, when it's like, let's just throw somthin' at 'em for math. And thrown somethin' at 'em for science. And throw some...you know it's like...and I've seen so many people waste...

J -

Shay, you really should not throw things at your kids. You're talking metaphorically, I'm sorry.

You don't throw those math books. It's bad.

S -

It will work! I don't know. Let's just try some days. Some days...I do not, for clarity, throw math books at my children. However, I have thrown money at curriculum.

J -

Oh yeah, girl. I got some money! I could be, like, in the Bahamas right now, all the money I wasted on home school stuff.

S -

My husband has literally said to me, I sure do wish you'd figured in the seventh, you know, year one and not year ten, because I feel like that would have been...saved us seven years- worth of money.

J -

I mean there's all that...all that new shiny stuff is expensive, girl.

S -

Yes. Trying to figure it out. But when you get the two roles, and you understand the philosophy behind what she's trying to say, that they literally are based on these principles, and then you feel like you have a firm foundation to have this relationship with your child, as their teacher. And then with you, back and forth, student-teacher, student-teacher, it makes so much...or so much more peace.

J -

Yes, right? And it's so different than the role of a student in a public education setting. So...well...I mean, go back and listen to the role of the teacher. That's very different as well, but the role of the student and, and you can tell me what you think in a second, but just from my experience as a public-school teacher, it's very passive. It's, open your little mind bucket, let me pour some stuff in. Let me come up with some really cool tricks, and let my lessons be super entertaining. Maybe you'll pay attention. And we're going to memorize a bunch of this stuff that I hope sticks in there too. You have to take, like, the state test at the end of the year. And I'm just going to fill and fill and fill and hope that you can regurgitate it out, so then...and that makes me a good teacher, then, because that...your role...I'm doing all this work and your role is to passively ingest it all.

S -

Right?

J -

Is that what you think?

S -

You don't spit out the thing that you were supposed to spit out, then that means I failed.

J -

It's on me. Yeah, totally, uh huh, I failed. Yeah I didn't teach you properly, right?

S -

Right, if I did not do my thing that I just do, and I don't think really anybody ever communicated to me clearly what the actual role of the teacher was in the learning part of...with my children. Like, I know they gave me a bunch of...a lot of tasks.

J -

Yes.

S -

But as far as anybody ever sitting down with me, until I found Charlotte Mason, in her volumes, and started reading that, there was never a clear communication, this is your role. Now, I knew what my job that I was getting paid for was.

J -

Right.

S -

But that's not the same thing as a...so, to understand what my role is, as a teacher when it comes to educating my children, or actually, I mean, I do a Charlotte Mason Co-op here at my house. A little...like a cottage school, with just two other families. And that is even so much easier because I understand what my role as a teacher is to those other...we only have six children in that Co-op, but those six children. And it makes for such... and I know what their role as student is.

J -

Right, right.

S -

And it makes so much...makes for so much easier relationship.

J -

Alright, well let's go...let's dive in here, then. So, what is the student's role then? She had a slogan that she had her students say, and we're going to kind of break that apart here. But it's so...I just love it because it's giving the ownership to the student. So they're saying I, and then it has a bunch of verbs, right? It's not, you mom, you teacher, you textbook. It's I...I have to be the one doing these things. And we say this motto, you know, before we start school, during our morning time. And it is, I am, I can, I ought, I will.

And it sounds really silly, but, like, I use this all the time for myself, as an adult. Like when I don't...like when I forget my identity in Christ, and I like...I'm believing lies. And I'm, like, I am. And then I'll just go through all the different things I am. And then, when I feel, like, defeated and I'm, like, no. I can do this. I can do all things through Christ strengthens me. You know? And then there's, gosh darn it, some days I just really don't wanna do different things, and can have a little pity party for myself instead of doing the things I'm supposed to do. I'm like, no, I ought. And I will. You know?

And it is such a powerful...I mean, you know, in modern psychology, there's all these affirmations and meditations and different things. But it really does work when you're retraining your brain because the things that you believe affect your thoughts and those thoughts affect your actions. And so, if we're wanting our kids to act in a certain way, we have to reprogram their thoughts and beliefs. So, I think that's what this motto is doing.

S -

Yes, it's so empowering to look at your children and have them say that. I'm not...it's not even you can.

J -

Hmm, right.

S -

You...it's from the point of their own personality, from their own capability. I am, and so I think even that is what's so empowering about it. And it's not just focused on behavior, like you're talking about, but its own identity. It starts with identity. Not, like, okay, this is what you should do. Fill out these...

J -

I will follow all the rules, you know?

S -

I will not ???...

J -

I will not...I will not hit my brother.

S -

I will learn my times tables. It's madding, but I think that's what's so powerful if we're gonna just dive in, is that, the first thing is, from the point of who they're...who they are as an identity. And, you know, this...life is going to throw all sorts of things at our children just like it throws them at us. And so when we start them out, when they're under our care, for them to understand who they are, what their identity is. That's what kinda drives the rest of these things that follow... I can, I will. Let's recognize who we are. Who does God say that we are?

J

Right.

S -

And how can I adopt that as my own identity? Not, who does my friend say that I am? Not this, who does the world say that I am? Or who does my performance say that I am? But who am I? What does the Bible, what does God say that I am?

J -

Right. And they do really relate, because if I don't believe that I am worthy, if I don't believe that I'm capable if I don't believe that I am a child of God, well, then why should I make the right choices, you know? Why will I do the hard thing and do this math problem, or do this narration that's really hard, right? It...you know, you have to have that identity piece first. So the I am, like we're saying, is talking about who they are. Then the I can, is to help the children focus on what they are able to do. And I think...I don't know about your kids, but I have some, they were a little dramatic, and it's always, I can't do this! You know? And, no, you can. Right? I'm here to help, and we can, you know, talk about different ways that we can modify some things, but I believe, you know, that you can.

And having them say it for themselves, I can do this. It's not me telling them. Because, I don't know about you, like, I mean, even as a... you know how people feel like, oh Julie, you can totally do that. And I'm thinking, no I can't. And, just them telling me doesn't make me believe in myself at all.

S -

No, and also, the fact that you're focusing on what they can do. Because it's so easy. Like, you know, even, I would hate when I taught school, I mean, we'd have these checklists, cause I taught kindergarten. And, you know, oh my gosh, you hate to check off that a little, you know, five-year-old cannot know all these....it broke my heart.

J -

And can't tie their shoes. That would always bother me. I was like, I was in fifth grade before I could tie my shoes, people. And I'm not stupid. Like, why do I have to check this off for this five-year-old, you know?

S -

So, we're really focused on what can you do? And I think that's super important, because, you know, I have students that...some of my own children, you know, that are great in language arts sort of things. But then I have one son who couldn't sit still for five minutes, but he's going to be an airplane mechanic. I mean, you know he's great with his hands, so what can you do? What are you capable of?

J -

And I told my one child, who's particularly I can't, almost every day, with math. Finally, I just said, you know, what you focus on increases, and so, if you believe, about yourself, that you can't do math, then every day your brain is going to try to find evidence to support that belief.

S -

Right.

J -

So I said, just, we're going to retrain, we're going to focus on...and every day before you start your math problems, you say, I can do these.

S -

Yes, and...

J -

And look for evidence of the ones you can do. Right. Not the other ones.

S -

And you're not starting from my...you're not even starting on a level field when you're starting from I can't. You're starting from a hole in the ground. And you have to build back up to level ground, and then build something.

J -

Yes.

S -

I think to say, you know, your kids every day, okay, have them say, I am, I can. And then when it gets to the I ought, it's easier because you already feel empowered for what you can do. Well, it's possible. And if I know what is possible for me, then the things that I ought to do. Look, there's days...I mean, I've been going through a really difficult time in my life with grief and just a lot of things, and I have had to say to myself, I ought to go brush my teeth. I ought to go make some...

J -

Or, I ought to get out of bed right now.

S -

Yes. It sounds so simple, but when, you know, we're knocked down, and we know our kids are going to face that too. For them to have some time in their life, for them to have that tool to say, okay, sometimes I have to tell myself I ought. And you know, look, I really do believe that math is one of those odd things...doing my math, I'm just not that girl. I'm the girl, history girl. And you know, sometimes, it's just I ought to learn these times tables because that is what I ought to do. And when we think about that, we're thinking about the consequences and choices based on the consequences.

J -

What do you mean by that?

S -

Well, like if I don't learn these times tables, the consequence is, I can't move forward and do...

J -

The consequence is, I'm going to be living in my mom's basement.

S -

Long term. Long term. Short term, next week. I'm supposed to be moving on to long division, and oh... I mean both. But I guess I have kids at both those ages. So, you know, you're thinking, down the road, you know, I cannot move forward if I don't make this choice. And so, just to think about the consequences. I ought to get out of bed and brush my teeth and make breakfast. Because if I don't do that, this house is going to go off the rails, and then, you know. So I love that I ought is there, but I don't know if I love having to...

J -

Having to do it. And that's where the will comes in. Because, you know, the will is what makes our brains go, okay, here's the concept, here's the choices. Go do the right thing. And it's a muscle. It is not something that is easily built, and Charlotte Mason talks a lot about that. The way of the will versus the way of reason, but you know we think a child is strong-willed if they're throwing a really big temper tantrum. It's like no, that child is weak-willed. They're not controlling their will. Their will is overtaking them to do the wrong thing, right? A strong-willed person will make a good choice. They've exercised that muscle over time and built those good habits that the will becomes easier. And I think, you know, part of what our role as the teacher is to make that atmosphere a possibility in our home, to kind of, where they don't have to make...use their will so much. And I think having a routine, having structure, then they're not having to ex...do I want to do this? Do I not want to do that? Am I gonna have to make myself do that? Like, there's this structure and these things happen naturally, and so then when they get to a hard math lesson or something like that, and they have to will themselves to do it, they know that this math lesson only lasts 25 minutes.

S -

Exactly.

J -

And then I'm over, and then I can go to something that I'm not going to force my will to do because it's exhausting. I mean, if you're working a job where you're having to will yourself for eight hours a day, like, you want to quit that job in a heartbeat, right? See, we don't want to have them forcing themselves to will themselves to do everything all day long. You know. So you do have to make, as a teacher, help them with that. So, especially the younger ones. If they're only exercising their will for a very small time.

S -

And I think too, that's one of the beautiful things about how the methods tie in with this motto because she gives living books. Well, sometimes living books are not always the easiest books to read. We could find any popular book to read that talks about this same topic. But when we will ourselves, and I get a lot of questions about this, about...

J -

Oh, me too, uh huh.

S -

...should I stick with this book? It seems so hard. And of course...

J -

We don't, we don't like it.

S -

We don't, we don't like it. It wasn't ??? And even though there's no overarching answer for that, like, written in stone. But you need to sit down because they're not...this is not the time for that book. I get that. But at the same time, sometimes you have to look at your child and say, your role right? Is to use your will to read this book because it is stretching that muscle. It is working that muscle. Go sit down, set the timer for ten minutes, and work your will for ten minutes to read this book. And even in read-alouds, and my kids love it when I read aloud with them. And I'm like, no, we don't do that... We will finish this. And then we can have a really good discussion about, why did we muscle through that? Why did we...what did we get out of that? You know, like when I go to the gym and I was, I'm like, okay, wow, I'm seeing a little calf muscle back there. Yes, those, you know, leg lifts or whatever they are, they're worth it. That's what you get when you work that will. But it does, like you said, it doesn't have to be...you're not doing it for eight hours every day. But you do need to work it. So...

J -

Yeah, that's a really good point. I like what you said, cause I get that question all the time too, about, we're not liking this book, or my kid says this book is too hard. What should we do? So then that comes back to the teacher, right? And that part of the role of the student is to will themselves, sometimes, to do things that they don't want to do. And I have had the experience, though, of the books that my kids have said that they dislike the most become the books that are the favorites. It has happened, hands down, every time. We're halfway through a book and they're, ‘I don't wanna read this. Can we please stop?’ And we...I'm like no, we're gonna go through this, and then by the end of it, they're like, I love that book. And then years later, they're like, hey Mom, remember the story of blah blah blah? I'm like, yeah, the one that I wanted to poke my eyes out because you kept complaining about it everyday? That one? Oh, I'm so glad, two years later, you're making some connection to something else that we're learning, but at the time, I was about ready to pull my hair out. Thank you. Yeah, I remember that book.

S -

Yes. I'm going through that right now because my form Three read a book that she kept saying she actually hated the whole time she read it. Well now my form two is...

J -

Can you tell me?

S -

Yes. It's our island story. I...she hated it. She said every...I hate this. I hate this. But, okay, well now, Elizabeth is reading this book. My form two. And she really loves it. In fact, we started out me reading it to her. And now she's like, no, I don't have time for you to read that, just give it to me. Cause she reads it.

J -

That's awesome.

S -

And, but what's so funny is she'll say something about it or name a character about it, or even just be doing narration. And then here's my form three saying, oh yeah, I remember that one. You hated that book. And she said, well, I thought I hated it too, but I don't think I really did hate it. I think it's just, it worked the muscles. She was not used to having work.

J -

Yep. And now that she sees the benefit, like now, it's like, oh, that wasn't so bad.

S -

Exactly.

J -

They're like, like when I ran, like, a half marathon, you know? Like, every time I had to go do a long run, like, it wasn't like, but this is fantastic. I love this. No, every, almost every Saturday I would go out there, I mean I can't believe I thought this was a good idea, but I signed up for this race, you know? But after the half marathon, I'm like, that was, awe...I'm so glad that. You know? Like, you just, it's like Talbert. You forget about all the pain because he has his end product.

S -

I'm superwoman. I can do this. Yeah. And I think that goes with the next thing that we're talking about, is if we put these this motto in their hands. And I really encourage people, if you are actually trying to use Charlotte Mason's methods and philosophy, to put this motto up somewhere in your house. I mean, I think it's so powerful. I don't know. Stick it on the bathroom mirror...

J -

I can put, in the show notes, a link to, like, I could...that cover that we use for the...morning time pages, that has the motto on it. Yeah. I'll link to, like, a free PDF. Whoever wants to print it out and your kids can color it or paint it or whatever you want to do with it.

S -

Right and just say it every day. Put it on the mirror in the bathroom where they can see it. Just, you know, to give them an opportunity. And when you put those in front of them, it really goes to that their education is their own. This is not...you own this. And whatever quality...look, I'm doing my job. I'm doing my job. I am doing the role of the teacher. I can say I am fulfilling my role. What you get out of this, it really, it's your job. Because this is your education. It belongs to you. It does not belong to me. Which is such a basic tenet of of her philosophy.

J -

Yeah.



Today's episode is brought to you by A Gentle Feast. A Gentle Feast is a complete curriculum for grades one through twelve that is family-centered, inspired by Miss Mason's programs and philosophy, and rooted in books, beauty and Biblical truth. You can find out how smooth and easy days are closer than you think at agentlepeace.com.




All right, so let's talk about, kind of practical here. So, on a daily basis, what does that look like if our children are taking ownership of their own education?

S -

Well, I mean, I think it looks a little different in every home, but in my home personally, it means, you know, when it's time for morning time, it's time for morning time. And I've set clear expectations for what this day is gonna look like. And so, you need to be there. Because you think it's valuable enough to do it. And it's kind of funny how, you know, if we're going to do something that they don't really want to do, nobody can find their shoes. But if they're going to a friends house right now, come on, come on, let's get, let's go. Come on. Come on. ??? We gotta leave right now or we're gonna be late for, you know, the thing.

J -

Oh, that was my daughter yesterday. She was having some friends over for a little Halloween party and I said, okay, well then, it's your responsibility to clean up downstairs. I came downstairs, I was shocked. It was spotless. Like, on a Saturday though, when it's like, hey, I need to go clean up the living room. It's like, wait, what? She wanders around and it's like 45 minutes later and nothing's been cleaned up. But somehow in 30 minutes, the whole downstairs is spotless cause she's having people come over. It's like, oh, it's funny how that works.

S -

So when you talk about it just in practicality, like, when we take this out of the realm of ideas and we're jerking it down into real life, like to me, that is, okay, whatever your rule is for school, we're gonna start school and it's time for you to be there. I usually give mine like a ten-minute warning. And that's what it looks like. I mean, this is my education. I'm going to be there. You know?

And another thing that I really work with my kids for the education to belong with...to them, is that they are responsible for their books. I don't know if you have this issue, but, I can't find our own...

J -

I think we have a house-elf, apparently cause...

S -

Where did it go?

J -

Pencils...pencils, socks, and schoolbooks, apparently, just disappear.

S -

Or their narration journals. I couldn't find my history narration journal. Cause I just used the little composition notebooks, you know? You literally use that every day of the week, either for British or America? Where could it possibly go? So these are things that I worked really hard on with my own children to kind of pull in that idea of you own this, into the real-life, like, daily kind of thing. And I think, too, and it's modeling that my education as a mother and you know, Charlotte Mason talks about mother culture so much, and that was like such a light bulb going off to me when I began to really study her philosophy and reader volumes, is that I model to my children that self-education is the only education. And one way, I really do model it to them. And that's why I'm constantly reading through her volumes. I get to the end of six, and I'll start back over. And I mean, look, it might take me over how long it's gonna take me, but I'm modeling to them. I'm not waiting for somebody else to tell me how to educate my children. I read these volumes. I usually just read a couple of pages a day. I sorta put it in there with my Bible time, and I just read a couple of pages, and I also think, like, in an artistic way, I was told my whole life I was a smart kid, not the artistic kid. I mean, I literally heard that. Like you know, here's part one and...

J -

Cause you need to be one or the other.

S -

Right?

J -

Yeah, I mean 'cause artists are dumb. Like, it doesn't make any sense.

S -

I was the one that had...I was reading up...??? and stuff. Well. like, three years ago, I went to a little conference and they were talking about moms and brush drawing and, you know, watercolor and stuff. I thought doggone it, I'm gonna do this with my kids. Now I love doing that.

J -

I loved your little cabin painting you did the other day. That was so cute.

S -

Oh, thank you. Well, it's not...it's still very amateur, but at the same...

J -

Oh no, but it's so cute.

S -

It's...I'm learning, you know I did not, nobody forced that on me. I took that on myself to learn. Well, took my little classes online, you know, so I do think modeling that, in your own life, is super important. And if you have older children, I really think you should discuss the principles with your kids. You know, maybe if you don't have like a...I mean, I understand you're not gonna do that with like a kindergartener or first grader, but you know, going through all those principles, we go through them in our morning time and I just redid my children. And so they understand what kind of education they're actually getting, so it does belong to them.

J -

Yeah. And so a big chunk of the student's role in education is the ability to either listen to a story or read a story, or read, you know, from a living book and then narrate it. Like, that is her principle method and it can seem like, okay, this is just way too simple. But it's really not, to be able to chew on that. So our job is to provide them with those books and then their job is to, like, actually eat it and digest it. So in Home Education on Page 227, she wrote, the most common and monstrous defect in the education of the day is that children fail to acquire the habit of reading. Knowledge is conveyed to them by lessons and talk, but the studious habit of using books as a means of interest and delight is not acquired. This habit should begin early so soon as the children can read at all, he should read for himself histories, legends, fairy tales, and other suitable matter. He should be trained from the first to think that one reading of any lesson is enough to enable him to narrate when he has read and will thus get the habit of slow, careful, reading, intelligent, even when it is silent because he reads with an eye to the full meaning of every clause.

So, there's a couple things here, but you know, they are doing this work of reading it and taking and making it their own and as opposed to...and that she's saying this is a monstrous defect in education of her day. But it is a monstrous defect in education today. It hasn't changed. That knowledge is conveyed to them through these lessons and talking especially now with a lot of the virtual school that's happening, you know? It's these zoom calls where teachers are talking, you know? And the kids are just having to passively sit there rather than giving them a living book full of ideas on that subject that they're going to have to read slowly and carefully on their own...

S -

Paying attention.

J -

And paying attention and making it their own. And another...I mean, someone might listen to that and say, okay, well what if my child can't read on their own? Like, or, the most viewed films progress on their own when they're seven? OK, no, that, you know, they can listen to them and I do have an episode...I don't know if it's gonna air before or after this one, with Nicole Williams on dyslexia. So you know, in our modern age we're very blessed to have, like, audiobooks and things. But whether they're reading it or they're listening and re...you know, following along, the point is that they're doing that work for themselves. They're coming in contact with their minds and thinkers on a given subject, and they're having to wrestle with those ideas rather than have them be digested and poured into them.

So that is the student's job.

S -

That's their job.

J -

Their primary purpose is this education where they're going to have to read and narrate, read and narrate, read and narrate.

S -

And she says also, I think this is so succinct. It's one of the reasons I love this quote. This is in volume three, page 69. She says a human being under education has two functions, the formation of habits and the assimilation of ideas. So when we give them those books they're...and they're paying attention for that short period of time in order to be able to narrate it back to us, they're forming that habit of attention, and they may not even realize that they're simulating the ideas that are there. But that's what they're doing, because we've fulfilled our role and given them a living book. You know, I did my job, I got my role. You perform yours now. Listen. Narrate.

J -

Another thing that it's key about the reading part is that their job is to grow at their own pace.

S -

Yes.

J -

And no amount of forcing, prodding, green housing, whatever it is, we're trying to do to make this thing grow faster, different, you know, it goes back to her first principle, that children are born persons. That, you know, their role and their education is to make continuous study progress.

S -

Right?

J -

And it's gonna happen on their own pace in their own timeline, especially when it comes to reading, I feel like. And in, this is For the Children's Sake, here on that chapter, but she's saying self-education begins with listening to carefully chosen books read aloud to the child every day. So, you know, when they're young, you're going to be reading a lot to them, because these living books are way above most children's reading level, and form one. And then he tells back in his own words what he has heard, or he may draw a picture to illustrate what was pictured in his imagination. When older, the same child will read for himself and write essays which narrate some part of what he has read. So, as they do get older and they're already able to read for themselves, it doesn't mean they're reading everything on their own, once they can read. But certain subjects, you know, start out slow, adding one or two where you're not going to read anymore. Like you were saying, with Island story, they're going to start reading that one. Okay, now we're going to add in science. Like, you're gonna read this one by yourself, or listen to it and follow along, depending on their reading abilities. And then, you know, once they get around age ten, they're going to start to write their narrations. Again, slowly, one subject, you know this...but it's this steady progress. And so when we take on that role from them and say, oh, here's this arbitrary measuring stick. You're six, you should be reading by now, and I like what she says in here, she says the young child of six will spend 20 minutes a day or whatever is practical learning the mechanics of reading and writing. All children are different. There is no normal age when he is ready and the speed of mastery will vary enormously.

This process should be carried out in a friendly, quiet, regular, and structured way. A child should never be made to feel that he is lagging behind others of his age. We don't harass babies of 18 months to walk if they still crawl. Einstein only started talking when he was four.

S -

Wow, so true. And we know it in our heads and you and I can have conversation, and probably every mother would be like, sure, they, you know, they can grow at their own pace. But then we get so wrapped up in comparison when it comes down to school. We're like, we don't worry about the growth thing. When it comes. We get so nervous about, you know, they're reading and they're...and listen. I've been that way lately with these multiplication tables. I'm telling y'all, these multiplication tables are killing me. And you know, it's one of those things that where I have to really back up, such a good reminder. And I do think...I get so many questions about narrations. We talked about that. How that is their role to narrate? And what that looks like. And I think really if you know your child then, and you sort of let them narrate the way that it comes most naturally for them, especially in the beginning. We're not talking about older. Older kids have got to learn to do merit written narrations. You know, in high school you gotta do that. But younger children? I mean, what is their go to? My child loves costumes and so she would dress up for every single narration, you know.

J -

Did you see my Facebook picture for today?

S -

Oh, with the painted face? Oh, but that was awesome.

J -

Yeah, so we were reading about the Scottish words and so I was like, oh we need to show them this clip from Braveheart, which is like always my favorite. Like the motivational core is like, we will die, but we will die free. You know, like, whatever it was, yeah. So we watch that. And then, of course Mel Gibson's face, he has this blue war paint on, so my kids are like can we paint our faces blue? I'm like, sure. You know, and, we didn't have any kilts, but we did have bagpipe music and sticks to act out the battle. Why not? Right? That's narration, people. It doesn't have to be formal.

S -

Exactly, and also, what I was gonna say is you did not look in a curriculum. Read about Vikings. Paint faces blue. You know way back? I mean, do you know what I mean? Is that natural progression for their interests. You know, like, okay, they're into this, let's do this. We're doing learning about First Nations right now. They have Americans, and so my daughter is really into the weaponry. I mean, every picture on the page, it's like, what is that thing? What is that thing? She's really into that, so I don't know if I should be nervous about that or not.

So she wants to make this weaponry that goes along with these stories, like, okay, I wanna make this. How do I make this? Can I...you know we're...so we have Tomahawks and arrows, and, you know? But I did not say to her, hey, go in there and create three first nations weapons. I did not do that. And I think people...I really get a lot of questions about, like, where are the activities. What do I do?

J -

They're in your child's imagination, you gotta wait for him to come out.

S -

This is their job. So whatever...

J -

This is their job, right?

S -

...starting with this is to, you know, you really have to help them understand that this is their role. If they haven't done this...now, I think if you do start at a young age, children naturally kind of progress with this, but if they have been very, like, okay, like you were saying in the beginning, I am an empty bucket. Fill me. If this is...

J -

Is this going to be on the test? Yeah.

S -

But this has been their mindset. If you can really sort of help them understand. You understand their role and then you gotta help him understand their role is to...what, just... what stuck to you about that? What character...is there a scene in your mind that just saw that you could draw or build with the Legos? Or maybe, whatever. The thing is, so they grow in that role as we, as teachers, help them understand that role. You know, looking for freedom.

J -

And it is that two-sided coin, right? Because they're not going to have the opportunity to make Tomahawks or paint their faces blue and act a battle out or whatever if your schedule is so full that there's no time for them to have free time of their day, right? These ideas take time to root and they do take time to come out and so they do need that kind of alone time and time in your schedule, flex time, and, as a teacher, you have to provide...you have to have craft supplies somewhere and paint somewhere and sticks and, they have to be outside. You know, you have to allow those kinds of things. As a teacher, we have to create that opportunity, but again, it's on them to kind of explore and want to do it. And, you know, we could have a curriculum where it says, okay, we're supposed to make three Native American weapons. Here's all the instructions. You could even buy, like, a little supply kit of, like, how you're supposed to make them. But, like, what is really going to happen with those weapons two weeks from now?

S -

They're gonna be in the trash can, because your kids don't wanna make 'em. There's no ownership.

J -

Nope. They care less, right? Yeah.

S -

They don't care. It did not come from an idea, and that's what, I just, I love that, that we... really their job is the assimilation of ideas that she says in that quote I read because no 4th grader is going to say, Mom, I assimilated the idea that this was extremely important to First Nations people. She doesn't know this is the idea that she's getting

J -

Right.

S -

The reason I know she's getting an idea is because, with every lesson, story we read in this living book, she's grabbing that there is some sort of weaponry in there to do fight a battle, to kill a certain type of animal. She...grabbing the idea, this is important to them. And because she's getting that, she's acting out that idea.

J -

Right.

S -

You know, and so my job was to give her this living book.

J -

Right.

S -

And give her the time. And plenty of sticks.

J -

We also live in an amazing time of, like, hey, you wanna go make moccasins? I don't actually know how to make moccasins, so there's this amazing tool called YouTube. Let's go watch a video on how to make moccasins and they're learning how to...that's their role. Again, cause they're doing the work of self-education. Here's something I want to do so that motivation is there that ideas there, right? And then our job is, you know, if you have a book on how to make moccasins, that's great. If you don't like technology, but. I'm not going to go look for book and how many moccasins, cause it's way easier just to go on YouTube, right? And that might seem, like, like, whatever. That's not really that great of a skill. But let me tell you, like, when I was starting A Gentle Feast, I made the website entirely myself and I, you know, learn how to do email and shipping and all this, like you know where I learned it all? On YouTube.

S -

Right.

J -

You know? Like, I didn't get a degree in any of that business, whatever stuff.

S -

Right. Well, my husband started business from scratch the same way. I mean he got laid off from his job six years ago and he came home and he said, I said, you know, what are you going to do? And he said, I'm going to wake up in the morning and start making money. I'm starting a business. And we'll start it tomorrow. And he figured it out himself. You know. And it was the very same, well, he bid on a job one time and he came home and he said, so I got a job and I think it was tiling something, I can't really remember.

And I said, do you know how to do that? He said nope, but I'm going to learn how.

So, you know, I mean, this is a self-education. That is a self-education. That's what it can look like. So, I do think there's a, there's, part of it is us as...and I don't know. Maybe it's because I was a teacher in the public-school setting, like, giving our children permission and letting go of that control. And that question, I get, like, a lot of questions like is it okay? You know what I mean? Like, is it okay if my child didn't write this narration, but is it okay if blah blah blah, that kind of thing? And so when you are giving your children permission to really go with those ideas, it's amazing how they'll grow that muscle.

J -

And that's, comes back to the whole point you were saying, especially with older kids, of explaining that to them, because getting that muscle, especially for older kids who are new to this method, is hard work. It's much easier when you're in your 20s, y'all, to run a half marathon. If you're in your 20s, go run a half marathon, cause when you're in your 40s, it's way harder. Right? So if you're an older student coming to this method and you have to build this muscle of self-education, where you're used to just sitting there passively and having people pour into you, it is really hard. Like you want to quit, just like when you're 40 and you're trying to run thirteen miles.

S -

Yes, it's so hard. I have a friend, a very good friend who took her child out of...he was in a charter school and just because of all the craziness that's going on right now. But basically, the schedule is the reason she took him out. And so he's getting a self-education right now, and it's been a...he's come a long way just in this term.

J -

Yeah.

S -

Wow, the first couple of weeks he's...

J -

I bet.

S -

He's like so...

J -

What am I doing here?

S -

Listen, stop. I'm like, buddy, there's ??? questions.

J -

Yep.

S -

Not there, you know, they're not there. And, but, wow, to watch the leaps and bounds, even though it felt like he was kind of falling out of the sky for the first while, have been really beautiful, so...

J -

They will progress faster than a younger child, if they are coming to it. That muscle will get built faster. I wish that was true with my body. But, you know, the metaphor only goes so far.

S -

But it is true. I do think it's beautiful to watch an older child who, I mean, it's not like you wanna say you just droppin' him in the pool and say swim. You kinda are a little but they learn it so much faster. You know, ??? so much more quickly, so it does work.

J -

Yeah, but expect that resistance it. This is a much harder way to learn, and your older child is going to feel that hard, and they're gonna tell you. And they're not going to like it because it takes so much more mental effort to read, especially like a book that was written 100 years ago, that, they don't understand the language. If they've ever read a book like this before. I mean, as adults, and I hear from all the time, people trying to read Charlotte Mason's volumes, they're like, what in the world is she talking about, right?

S -

And I felt that way the first volume that I read. I remember reading it, thinking what in the world? But then I'm like, okay, I am, I can, I ought. And you know, now when I go back, it does feel easy. And I did wanna say this, like, you know we talked about, well, this is the most diff...this is a more difficult way to learn. I really think it's the only way that learning actually happens.

J -

Shay! Mic drop on you, girlfriend! Amen.

S -

Really don't think the other ways are actually...

J -

That's true. That isn't learning. That's an excellent point.

S -

I really don't get...you know, I think it's just..

J -

Yeah, and she talks about that in volume six, on page 26, she says, but the children ask for bread and we give them a stone. We give information about objects and events which mind does not attempt to digest, but casts out bodily upon an examination paper. And then she goes on, she's quoting someone, she says, education, said Lord Haldane, sometime ago is a matter of the spirit. No wiser words have been said in the subject, and yet we persist in applying education from without as a bodily activity or emollient. We began to see light. No one knoweth the things a man but the spirit of man which is inside of him, therefore there is no education but self-education.

S -

Wow, it's so powerful to think that. It's internal. It's an internal thing and no activity I throw at the lesson or try to create can actually bring about that Nebulous sort of thing that's learning. What is that thing? You know? It's that, you know, idea that we read the same book. We read the same passage. And yet, because of your unique capabilities, your unique personality, my unique personality, capabilities, experiences, we take away two different things from that same passage. And so you learn, I learn. But we learn different things. And the method of narration allows us to express what we learned without it being laid up against some checklist.

J -

Right.

S -

We did or did not match up to. And that is scary and beautiful at the same time.

J -

Right. And it's the exact opposite of like, kind of this industrial factory style of education, of if I input X, I get out Y. You might get out Y, like she was saying, they're regurgitating something onto an examination paper, but that's not learning, like you were saying. We can't...it comes from inside of someone.

S -

Right.

J -

The spirit inside of us is learning it and making it our own and taking that idea and we can't control that. We love control. This is scary.

S -

I love that checklist and, like, we did this. Yes. We did that Yes.

J -

Oh, look at this paper with all this right answers. I'm such a good teacher.

S -

Yes. And so sorry to say okay, I mean I remember the first time I...when I ditched, what, ten years ago? I just ditched the list, you know? And I'm like, here's a stack of books. I mean, what do I do with these? I literally had a person last week...

J -

You lift them, it's...they're weights.

S -

Right! If you just pick 'em up, set 'em down, pick 'em up, set 'em down, pick 'em up, set...I got a question from...I see the book list, well, what do I do with this? And I, like, how much time do you have?

J -

Yeah, she's like.

S -

...for me to explain to you that, you know, really, it's not your job to do anything with those books. Your job is to put...

J -

Your job is to go get them.

S -

Go get 'em. From the...down from the Internet.

J -

Steal 'em, wherever you gotta get 'em.

S -

Whatever. You know, I've taken books out of the trash before and it kills ???

J -

Punch that other mom at the used book sale trying to get that book.

S -

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's...I do think this though. If you spend any time, you know, and look, I do get it, like, there are people who get really overwhelmed with these volumes. I understand. And if you're starting out and you really wanna just start out with the Charlotte Mason education, you know, maybe reading these volumes six in a row is not the smartest thing to do. I get it. But we're really blessed with people on the Internet who have taken these principles, these methods, and they've really kind of simplified them to today's language so you can go on there, learn enough about your role. These podcasts that you and I have worked so hard on, too.

J -

That are awesome! Hello.

S -

Right? We think so. Really, we just want to sit around and chat about things we care about and we just happen to get to record it. But, you know, spend a little time understanding that and you'll get that it is so much more than just a stack of books. You know, for you, for your children. Such a beautiful, beautiful...I'm not even gonna say way to learn. I'm gonna say the way to learn.

J -

Yes, I agree with you. And I just love that picture, though, like, here's the books. Here you go. Like, that is really what we're doing. Like, we give them a lot of tools. We teach them about narration. We, you know, can help them and so many ways, but...and that relates really well to something else she said in a Philosophy of Education. So, in a Philosophy of Education, there's a whole chapter called Self Education. So, I highly recommend reading that. Don't take Shay and I word for this, cause we don't really actually know what we're talking about. Actually, go read what Charlotte Mason said for herself, right? Okay. But that's our little disclaimer here. We're just having a good ole time.

S -

Talking about it.

J -

But yeah, in that chapter she says, at the very end, in urging a method of self-education for children in lieu of the vicarious education which prevails, I should like to dwell on the enormous relief to teachers. A self-sacrificing and greatly overburdened class Amen. Difference is just that between driving a horse that is light and driving a horse that is heavy in hand. The former covers the ground of his own happy will and the driver goes merrily. The teacher who allows his scholars the freedom of the city of books is at liberty to be their guide, philosopher, and friend and is no longer the mere instrument of forcible intellectual feeding.

I just love that so much and we talked about that and so I might have even use this quote, I can't remember. It was too long ago. About the teacher that, you know, our role is to be this guide, philosopher and friend. But their job, you know, they are the horse...they are doing that work. You know, the horse is the one at the end of the day that's...you know. And the driver, even if it was, like, a really happy, like of course, right? Yeah.

S -

Right. And I think, you know, I think about all the people I know. Home schoolteachers included. All sorts of teachers, who they are that very thing. They're just tired. Just so tired.

J -

Pullin' a horse is hard work, man.

S -

Right. And, you know, I wanna say...now listen, I don't want to make it sound like, oh everything is great in the Kemp household and it's always easy or whatever, but I will say the difference when I begin to educate this way, when we really begin to buy into this, that this is really the way we've created to learn. I could put down that yoke that was on my own shoulders. Set it down. That is not meant to be on my shoulders. This is your job. This is your job. And yes, here's your books. And yes, it did take some, you know, some time, some lots of discussion and some adaptation right? But, oh my goodness, so will, yeah, and the planning. I mean, I sit down on Sunday night and I'm like, they're reading this this week, they're reading this.

J -

Yep. It takes me like 20 minutes.

S -

Me too!

J -

Yeah.

S -

And I will tell you, I have people who do not believe that I'm telling the truth when I say that. I'm like, yes, I...that really is how long it takes. Now getting the books together is the work I did in the summer.

J -

Yes, exactly right.

S -

And forming the schedule and making adjustments to the schedule, I did that ahead of time.

J -

Right. So you're just plugging in at this point.

S -

Now I'm just saying, okay, you're doing this. You're doing this. We're doing this together. This is what we're doing here, and it is such a joy. It really is a joy to say...and I get excited. I think, oh yes, we're reading this story this week. I love this, you know? I mean this book we...we just finished Trumpet of the Swan.

J -

That's so good.

S -

Oh come on, it may be one of my favorite books though. I don't know, I just love that book so much. Every time we finish it. I'm like oh, love it! And so I can enjoy that instead of coming up, okay, now we read chapter one, what's the activity? What do I do to push this modification? What is the metaphor in this? Duh duh duh duh duh. All this stuff, you know, that I used to do when I taught ???

J -

Yes. Yes, right?

S -

And I'm exhausted. I'm tired, and by the time I teach the lesson, I'm like, I don't even care. I don't know, you know.

J -

Yeah. I don't wanna make no papier Mache Swan. You know? I'm just too tired.

S -

Maybe in my 20s when I was actually a ??? And now, like, forget it, read the book, I mean right? But...

J -

But I do... like, and we say, okay, well is that enough? You know? And I think we both have children who are in college, and they're...I mean, even my kids will say this to me. The difference between them and kids who were given everything, and this is what's going to be on the test, and here's your outline, and here's your study guide, and you know? Let me break down this book for you, and then tell you what the important things are Like, they don't know how to think. And so when it comes to like, reading a book in college and then writing a paper in your own words about that idea, they're just like, wait, what? What am I supposed to do?

S -

It's because textbooks are not based on ideas. They are based on maybe facts. But it's the idea. It is...the foundation of what we're providing is ideas, and that's why I love this quote so much. That is your job. If you are a student, she says, form the habits, assimilate ideas. You may not know that's what you're doing. But that's what you're doing. You're assimilating the ideas. And when we give that to them, they are going to be prepared.

My son is in aircraft maintenance technician school right now. I don't know anything about aircraft...

J -

I barely know how to turn my car on, girl. I don't even know how to, like, open the hood on that thing.

S -

And I get nervous, like, I hope everybody put this down to get to know what they were doing. ??? ...is electricity, something about airplanes? I don't really know. But he loves it and he can even tell you, like, oh yeah, we read this book about Tesla and then we read this book..

J -

Oh yeah.

S -

I didn't know that that was a basis for what he was getting into doing, but it was the ideas in those books that were like spark, spark, spark, spark.

J -

??? girlfriend, talk about Tesla with sparks. I mean, that was just...that was too funny.

S -

Totally on purpose. Oh my goodness, but I do think that if we can just trust it. If we can just trust the methods and trust that the role of the student is actually based on their own development and the way they were created, not just some person sitting behind the desk, somewhere, says I think will just try this method.

J -

Let's spend 10 grand on these new books and this new system. I'm sure this will solve the problem and make students want to learn, right? Yeah.

S -

And to teach, you have to learn it all over again. I'm like, wait a minute what? In college they taught me this about...now I'm getting into my class and you say no, don't do that anymore, now it's this? You know, it's just, it's frustrating over and over.

J -

Yes. Whereas this...these are in...even said that. These are timeless principles based on the law of nature of how people learn and acquire knowledge. This isn't rocket science. Yeah. This is our innate God-given way that our brains work to take in information. And like you said about making habits and acquiring ideas. You won't stop doing that, if you want to grow as a person, to the day you die. Like, I am still working on my habits and I'm still constantly...which is why we're having this conversation right now, cause I gotta get these ideas out somehow or I'm gonna go crazy cause I'm home with a bunch of kids all day long.

So I mean, we're always...if you're growing human being, you should be acquiring new habits and you should be acquiescing ideas all the time.

S -

And see, even if it's in a job situation. So I think that's what's so beautiful, it's like I am the teacher, right? But I'm also the student. I'm also a student and my prayer is that I will recognize my role student till the day that I die. I mean that's why I don't just check out novels from the library. That's why I check out self help books, growth books, books on topics I'm interested in. You know, all those kinds of things because I am still the student.

J -

Yeah, see the role of the student never changes. The teacher might not be there anymore. I mean, hallelujah, my college kids are gone and I'm not teaching them anymore. I love 'em, but I'm glad somebody else is teaching them at this point. But then when they go and get jobs, like, there's no...there might be a boss, but there's really not a teacher. They have to get that from inside themselves,

S -

Right.

J -

And to have your whole life be preparing, that's preparing you for a life. Like Charlotte Mason talks about.

S -

Yes. It's the education of a life and that's what I think is so...it is just really what keeps me going, you know? I mean, I think before I really began following her philosophy, I had a lot of questions. Like, is what I'm doing right? Is it enough? Are they doing the right things? I feel like there was not a lot of confidence in our homeschooling, and I would, I had been a teacher. So, I, just, it was so many questions. But now I'm like, okay, am I following this role because it literally is how God says teachers function, and are my children following this role because it's literally how God says people learn. And then, okay, yes, I'm making mistakes here and there. We don't always stay on the same spot.

J -

Every five seconds, pretty much yeah.

S -

Right, but there's a confidence in the fact we were moving forward, like you were talking before, we're moving forward making progress. We're forming habits and sometimes we have to go over, you know backtrack. Oh, we went off the rails on this habit and we gotta sorta start over on this one and work...get back on the rails. And, okay, maybe this book is not the best thing for ideas. I thought it was more living. It's not, of course if I used ones that my friend Julie chose for the curriculum that I use, they're...who is awesome. Then I don't worry about that. But, you know, it's just so much more peace, so much more confidence in the schooling as a whole, that I don't...and my husband has said this to me. I know he's involved in some ways, but pretty much he's the provider and I'm the teacher here. He's like, I'm so glad that I don't see you stressing over that. So glad that's awesome...with the confidence, and the confidence in our children so.

J -

Well, I think that's a really good point, cause this style of education, that the student...it's your self-education. I believe in you. I'm gonna give you these materials. I think you can handle them. It's that high view of children. That does boost their confidence. When it's, I'm passive and I'm dependent on you to be the source and fountain of all knowledge, and to fill it in me, then I'm not confident in myself, right? What's going to happen when you're not here to fill my bucket anymore? Do I know how to learn and think on my own? And it builds a child's self-confidence to wrestle with hard ideas. I've seen that in my kids so much, like reading Pilgrims Progress, reading Shakespeare. Like, just their confidence, and I think this is what it's saying now and I'm like, that's a really neat idea. Like, wow, that was really insightful.

S -

Even making the effort to make a connection. I mean, you know, like we, we watch our Shakespeare plays, I mean, I...there's no way, when I was in the 4th grade, would I have ever watched a Shakespeare play, and even made the effort to understand it. But you know, my 4th graders like, oh, I get that. I get that, you know, I mean, because she does have confidence herself, but of course she could understand this.

S -

Because she's told you repeatedly, her narrations and you've listened. And that's another thing I think that is so key about this method is it builds the relationship, I'm going to look you in the eye, I'm going to listen to what you have to say, and I'm not gonna correct you or belittle you. And how affirming that is to a child to go, what you're thinking and what your ideas and what your connections are and what your thoughts are, are so valuable that I'm going to stop and I'm going to listen to them. I mean, it's sad that there's so many children that never get that now. From anybody.

S -

Right. And also, I've...this is what I notice in my children. I notice when we started with narrations it was like, every statement with, like, the little question mark at the end, like, is my name Bob? She went on a walk and there was probably a dog. You know, you don't need it so yeah. And look, sometimes they just really mess it up, so, you know...

J -

Well, at least if I mess it up now, they're very certain. It sounds convincing.

S -

Yes! There's like, there was a girl. She was in a canoe. She was...they went and they killed a deer. They skinned it and then they did...you know, this is a story. Like, I am certain that this is the story that I got. And then I'm thinking, I'm not sure that I that's what we read. But you're definite. Do you like, you know, I do think that it's a powerful thing because if we're gonna be wrong, let's really be wrong. Let's just be wrong.

J -

But we are not saying that with...

S -

Nah, just joking. I really understood. I'm like, that's just me being silly. But I do...

J -

It's that confidence, yeah.

S -

The confidence. And they'll say, this is what I read and...

J -

And I definitely see that with my older kids, like, they have no qualms telling people what they think, They have no qualms getting in front of people that are way older than them and speaking in front of a whole roomful of people because they're used to sharing their ideas of books. Their whole lives. And it does, it's not weird. Yes.

S -

I just don't see that in any other way that people try to educate, that we really have turned it where there is...the whole point is for them to stand on their own two feet. That's the whole point. It's not to make me look good. It's not to make me give them a checkmark.

Our sticker. Or give them a grade that says oh, great job. It's for me to say, did you read this and consider it an tell me what you consider from reading it. And it's just so simple and I don't have to figure out, okay, oh gosh, okay, we made a mobile last week. This week we need to do a paper. So next week we need to do...you know what I mean? Like, I gotta cut this out with, you know, from lamination and then I gotta, you know, stick it together and...I just...

J -

It just, it takes so much of the burden off and it is empowering, as humans, we want to be empowered that we are capable, and we're telling our children, I believe in you, you are capable to wrestle with this idea. You are capable to make it your own. I believe in you and to have that empowering message, is just, it's huge, yeah.

S -

Every day. Every day. And that's why I think, you know, this motto. Print it out, put it up where you can see it...

J -

Yeah. All right, well you and I could probably talk forever, but people might fall asleep. So is there any, like, closing thoughts or quote that you'd like to share?

S -

Only that I think that the more you...the one point I wanna emphasize is that there is a beautiful relationship between the parent and the child when you understand these particular roles as teacher.

J -

Yeah, I mean, in that quote I read, it was like, philosopher, companion, friend.

S -

That is precious. And because I had three of my three oldest all moved out within a month of each other this summer. That is something that we cannot, I cannot emphasize enough. Because they're gone now, right? They're not narrating to Mom anymore, so I really hope people will go...

J -

Cause mine still call me every once in a while. They don't realize they're narrating, but they're like, Mom, guess what my teacher said about...you know, or, yeah.

S -

I do get that. I read this stupid textbook. This is ??? I'm telling you it's not. But I do hope people will go back and listen to that other podcast on the role of a teacher and kind of bookended with this one, because that relationship that it creates is really valuable and really precious and time-sensitive.

J -

Yes. Alright, well this last quote I will read and I can't...you're gonna have to put in the show notes where it's from cause it doesn't say, but, it says my...this is Charlotte Mason writing...my object is to show that the chief function of the child, his business in the world during the first six or seven years of his life, is to find out all he can about whatever comes under his notice by means of his five senses. So here, she's talking about younger children, and this, again, it pertains to everybody your whole life, that their business is to find out all you can about whatever comes under your nose. And that comes from that insatiable curiosity and desire that's part of all of us and we didn't really touch on them. We talked a lot about books, but we really didn't touch on the fact that, you know, their role is to use their senses out in nature. And you know, all of her different modalities in the whole entire philosophy comes into play here as well. But we did kind of focus on the academics. Whereas you're learning when you're out in nature study, you're learning when you're playing, you’re learning when you're making handicrafts. It all incorporates, encompasses is all of that, but it's their job to do those things. We're just giving them the tools and the environment to make that happen, so.

Awesome girlfriend, well thank you so much. Love you.

S -

Aw, thank you. Love you too.




J -

Thank you for joining us today on the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I would love to meet you in person. All of the Great Homeschool Conventions have been rescheduled to 2021. Go to greathomeschoolconventions.com to find a convention near you.

But you don't have to wait until 2021 to experience the amazing speakers and vendors at the Great Homeschool Conventions. They now offer an online convention that you can find on greathomeschoolconventions.com.

Also, if you would like the show notes for today's episode go to homeschooling.mom. If you take a moment to subscribe to this podcast in iTunes and leave a review, I would greatly appreciate it. It helps get the word out about this podcast to our audience.

Thanks for joining me today. Until next time, may your home be filled with books, beauty, and Biblical truth.


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