CM 3 Episode #21 A Few Broad Essential Principles with Julie H. Ross and Karen Glass

CM 3 Episode #21 A Few Broad Essential Principles with Julie H. Ross and Karen Glass

Links and Resources:

Show Notes:

Karen Glass has been a homeschooler since 1994 and she’s still not quite finished. She has four children, three of whom are married, and one highschool daughter still at home. She also has a granddaughter who bears the name Charlotte Marie, although she was not named for Charlotte Mason. Karen has been reading and studying about Charlotte Mason since she began teaching in 1994 and has implemented Charlotte Mason’s methods of education from beginning to end. She helped to create the AmblesideOnline curriculum which has served families with a free curriculum for almost twenty years, which has given her the opportunity to observe and learn from other families about how well Charlotte Mason’s educational principles work. Several years ago, she began writing and publishing books to share the things she has learned even more widely and continues to read and learn about education, which is her passion.

The question is not,––how much does the youth know? when he has finished his education––but how much does he care? and about how many orders of things does he care? In fact, how large is the room in which he finds his feet set? and, therefore, how full is the life he has before him? (Vol. 3, pg. 170-171)

Show Transcript:

CM EP 21




Julie -

Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show, a podcast dedicated to discussing Ms. Mason's philosophy, principles, and methods. It is our hope that each episode will leave you inspired and offer practical wisdom on how to provide this rich living education in your modern homeschool. So, pull up a chair, we're glad you're here.

Today's episode of the Charlotte Mason Show is brought to you by Medi-Share. Find out more about this affordable Christian alternative to traditional health insurance at medishare.com.

The Charlotte Mason Show would also like to thank their sponsor, Operation Christmas Child. Now, more than ever, children need hope. As the world struggles with the coronavirus pandemic, we want to let them know that God loves them and has not forgotten them. The best way to get involved is to pack a shoebox yourself. As you specially select each item, packing a shoebox becomes a blessing for you as well as the child who receives it. Be sure to include a personalized note and photo. If packing a traditional shoebox isn't an option for you this year, we can do it for you. Build a shoebox online. You can find out more at SamraitansPurse.org/occ. Again, that's SamaritansPurse.org/occ.

Before we jump into today's episode, I just wanted to give a listener shoutout to Tammy who wrote this review in iTunes. If you've ever listened to podcasts by Charlotte Mason enthusiasts and felt that you could never live up to their ideas, Julie will be a breath of fresh air. She admits that, like all of us, she has her strengths and weaknesses and she's not afraid to use and recommend resources, created by others to compensate for her weak areas. While I glean from and use some resources from other publishers, A Gentle Feast has proved to be the best fit for our family. And this podcast is an extension of the life-giving heart of that lovely curriculum. It's true to Charlotte Mason, but without the purist mentality. I've been blessed to meet Julie in person on multiple occasions and love that she's as real on here as she is in real life. Thanks for sharing your research, your passion, and your real self with us, Julie.

Aww, thank you so much, Tammy, for saying that. That means so much to me. And, if you have enjoyed listening to this podcast and you would take a few second, I know our schedules are so busy, but if you would take a few seconds to leave a review in iTunes, I would so greatly appreciate it. Or rank the podcast, it helps others hear about it as well, so, thanks Tammy for writing that. I really appreciate it.

Hey everyone, Julie Ross here. On today's episode, I am interviewing no other than Karen Glass. I have to admit, I felt slightly intimidated interviewing with her. I have been a huge fan of her work. She's one of the founders of Ambleside Online, and has written several books like Know and Tell, Consider This, and In Vital Harmony, and I have loved all of them. She is a Charlotte Mason expert and, yeah. I was like, oh goodness, I hope I do okay in this interview with her. I respect her so much, and you all are just gonna be blown away by what she has to say.

We're discussing this concept of a few central principles, and I just wanna read to you from the back of her book, In Vital Harmony, just to kind of give you an idea of what we're gonna talk about today. She wrote, Charlotte Mason looked at the world and saw that it was governed by universal natural laws, such as the law of gravity. Then she wondered, what if there were similar laws that govern the way people learn. If we knew what those laws were, we'd be able to pursue education along the most promising lines. She devoted her life to finding the key principles of education, then developing methods to make the most of them. The result is a comprehensive picture of living and learning that brings life into education at every level, from babyhood, to the adult years. It's not a rote system, but a flexible set of ideas that keep education in focus. These principles are for everyone concerned with teaching and learning. They are no more difficult to understand and implement than the principle of gravity, which allows you to walk around and even when you know what you're doing to soar.

So we're gonna talk about those few principles today, and if you're not familiar with Karen Glass, she's been homeschooling since 1994. She has four children. Three of them are married and one daughter still at home. She also has a Korean daughter who bears the name Charlotte Marie, although she was not named for Charlotte Mason. Karen's been reading and studying about Charlotte Mason since she began teaching in 1994 and implemented Charlotte Mason's methods of education from beginning to end. She helped to create Ambleside online which has served families with a free curriculum for almost 20 years. And which has given her the opportunity to observe and learn from other families about how well Charlotte Mason's educational principles work. Several years ago, she began writing and publishing books, like the ones I told you about, and she has learned even more while ??? about education which is her passion. And the passion definitely comes through in this interview.

So let's get started.




Hi, hello everyone. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I am here today with Karen Glass, and I told her that I am super fangirling because, I have so appreciated everything that she has written and listening to her talk, she is just a wealth of knowledge about Charlotte Mason. So, thank you so much for joining us today, Karen.

Karen -

Oh, I'm glad to be here.

Julie -

Yeah, and can you...we were just discussing before we hopped on about our different time changes. So can you just give our listeners just a little bit of information about you and your family and what you're doing now, if they're not familiar?

K -

Okay, well, my husband is in the military, and we have been part of a small church plant in Poland for quite a few years. In fact, we're in our 23rd year being here in Poland. And I have four kids and we raised them all here. Three of them are married and live in the states now, and then I also have one high school daughter still at home.

J -

Okay, great. And how did you get involved with homeschooling, then, and specifically, Charlotte Mason?

K -

Well, I originally planned to homeschool because I knew that we were going to be living outside the US. So my initial, you know, I mean, when I was newly married and didn't have any kids or school-aged kids yet, I always planned to homeschool. And, this story is kind of funny, but, my husband used to work for Abeka books. Long, long time ago. So, I didn't even think about it. We just took it for granted, that you know, that we were gonna be using this, you know, basic boxed curriculum. That was what you did. But when my kids were really, really small, like three and under, I had a couple of kids, and I had the opportunity to go to a homeschool curriculum fair. And I just went to see, you know, what was going on. It was, I wasn't really ready to start teaching, you know, with such small children.

I was there. And was drawn to this one particular vendor who had a lot of, you know, interesting books. I've always been a reader and I've always loved to read. And I was just, you know, browsing around there and he...we started talking and he said to me, you really need to read this book. And he handed me a copy of For the Children's Sake by Susan Schaffer McCauley, which is, of course, an introduction to Charlotte Mason. And her philosophy of education. So I went home and read that book and I jokingly say, and Abeka lost a customer forever. Because it was just so compelling to me. And of course, there was a lot of quotes from Charlotte Mason in there. It's kind of my thing to always read the original sources, so then I immediately ordered the set of the six volumes, and this was 1994. It was absolute infancy.

J -

Yeah.

K -

I didn't know anybody in real life. It wasn't even really the internet. We had AOL, you know.

J -

Yeah. Or Yahoo Groups. Yeah. Yeah.

K -

Even Yahoo wasn't around.

J -

Oh, wow.

K -

But, that I used in 1994, but, we had the, you know, dial up with a modem.

J -

Yes.

K -

Those bulletin board kind of things...

J -

When the dinosaurs were living, yes, my kids are like, how did you live? Yeah.

K -

So, anyway, I didn't know anybody in real life and I started reading those books, and I mean, anybody who's just, you know, picked up those Volume One and started to read, it's not what you expected. It's not what you're used to. And, so I went looking for some other people and I found, in some homeschooling groups there on the internet, some people who wanted to read. And we started reading those Volumes together. And by the time my oldest was six and really ready to start formal education, I was just completely on board. And there's a story I like to tell too. I included it in Know and Tell, just because it really is the thing that just sort of, it, you know, set the whole, so to speak, there was... made me want to continue using Charlotte Mason, you know, without necessarily, we didn't know back then, you know...like, I didn't know anybody who used Charlotte Mason for high school. You could find a lot of people thought Charlotte Mason was very un-school-y.

J -

Oh, they still do that, yeah.

K -

Well, they literally, there was, in 1994, those Volumes had been published in 1989, but of course, you know, like I said, pre-internet, and they hadn't really gotten a footing. When I started talking to other people about Charlotte Mason and learning with them in 1994, I didn't know a single person who had read all six volumes. And there was nobody to tell us. We'd start with Volume Six, that would be okay, and they're numbered one to six. So, it was years before I knew anybody who, you know, was trying her ideas with a high school student, or who had read all the way through to the end of the volumes. So, I started with my six year old and we would do a narration, and we were still just in the early months, because it was right around Thanksgiving, so you know, still relatively early in that school year. And I read in the book about the first Thanksgiving and the pilgrims. It was Alice ??? first Thanksgiving, and he narrated it, maybe across the course in a week or so. And I had a friend whose child was a year older and was using, just, a boxed curriculum, and she called me one day, kind of disappointed because her seven year old second grader had had this writing assignment to write two sentences about the first Thanksgiving. And she was just not impressed with his production, which was the Indians are nice, the Pilgrims are nice. And I thought, I thought about that and I went back to my six-year-old son later, and I said, what can you tell me about the first Thanksgiving. And he told me the whole story. This...in great detail. If I had transcribed it and written it down, you know, it probably would have been a page and a half.

But he wasn't capable of writing that. I don't...in fact, I know, he couldn't have even written the two simple sentences that my friend's son had written. But I thought, you know, if narration does this, if it allows a child to express themselves, you know, what's in them, that, you know, that's going to build their intellect so much better than this other, you know, kind of, not ready for that yet. You know, to write. And they can express...they have so much to express. They just...seeing that contrast between what a child could write and what a child could narrate, at that early stage in education, made me want to see what it would look if I stuck with it all the way to the end. And I just committed myself and my kids to sticking with it, narration, Charlotte Mason, all the way through to the end. And of course, over the years, I've had the opportunity, not only to see how that worked out in my own family, but you know, in hundreds of other homes.

J -

Yeah. That's so amazing. I love that story and it's so...I remember reading that, Know and Tell, and I recommend that book to everybody, because narration is such a key component and so many people get really freaked out and intimidated by it. So, that book is so very practical and helpful for people.

But, yeah, I used to teach elementary school, and I, and you know, we used to have to, you know, teach our kindergarten class, had to teach a kindergarten class by the end of the year, they had to be able to write two sentences, and it was always like, I like dogs. Dogs are nice. Like, because I saw they could spell, you know, but, like, but, yeah, like you said, the seeing the difference in my kids too, and just in terms of what they can orally narrate to me is just incredible and I just admire you so much in the willingness to see it all the way through, cause it is very intimidating, especially even nowadays, with all the resources. Homeschooling high school, you know? Like, it is so, like, AH!

K -

It's one reason my...I did write...I wrote Know and Tell because I, you know, I know what it felt like for me, you know, to make that commitment. And we didn't...I didn't have anybody and I didn't have any examples or, you know, guarantees or examples of what it might look like at higher levels, and so I really, you know, wanted to give, you know the next generation of homeschool families, like, all the tools that will help you, you know, make the same commitment, but with a lot more, you know, resources and an assurance at your disposal.

J -

Yeah, thank you for doing that. And I'm excited, today we're gonna jump into your newest book, In Vital Harmony, and kind of talking about Charlotte Mason's principles. And I really loved this book because...well, just with the story you were sharing. Like, everyone I talk to, you know, For the Children's Sake...it's like, it's this seed, and I, you know, it's like, if she knew how many lives were changed from that book, you know, of these homeschool moms and then their children that they educated this way, I mean, it's just incredible, right? But yeah, same for me. I mean, I was teaching public school when I read it, and just, those ideas and that book, and then, letting them take root, and then, the fact that education is a science of relations and how they started building and connecting led me to want to incorporate that in my home as well.

And so, it really does tie in with your new book. What inspired you to write In Vital Harmony? A kinda jump into the principles.

K -

Well, over the years that I've been homeschool, those of us who call ourselves Charlotte Mason homeschoolers have always been like, you know, a ??? It's just, we're just, you know, a very small overall percentage. And, for, I mean, for a long, long time, we tended to gather in the same places, you know, the same Yahoo groups. And you could literally know almost everybody in the... because...at least everybody who wanted to be a part of an online community. But within the last...I can't date it anymore at this stage of the game, but I'd say five or six years, with the rise in the popularity of podcasts like this, I think there were several Charlotte Mason podcasts and I think that a lot of new homeschoolers...I think, homeschooling in general, has gone ahead and kind of exploded over the past couple of years.

J -

Oh, definitely, yeah.

K -

And that's more, and because of these podcasts, more and more people are getting interested in Charlotte Mason, because they listen to podcasts. So they heard things on podcasts about Charlotte Mason, but they haven't necessarily yet dived into those kind of call to read volumes, or...until their first question. And this is, I mean, it's every homeschooler's first question, right? Is what curriculum am I gonna use? How do I do this? How do I do this?

And there are other...I mean, I don't know, I haven't researched other educational methods the same way that I have Charlotte Mason, but with a lot of kind of familiar educational methods, like Waldorf or Montessori, if you aren't doing things a certain way, like, this is, you know, this is the way that you do Montessori, or this is the way...this is Waldorf. And you have to do these things that if you don't, then, it just isn't...you know, you're not doing Montessori or you're not doing Waldorf. And so, a lot of people are coming to Charlotte Mason with the same...they have the same basic concept. Well you have...you know, Charlotte Mason said that students need to learn three languages, so if you're not doing that, whoops! And I was just...and not just that. That's just one of them. You know, they were looking at her specific things that she did, and then, you know, well, if I wanna do Charlotte Mason, I have to do things exactly the way Charlotte Mason did them. And that isn't actually the case with Charlotte Mason. The principles drive the practices. And so, if you get, if you come to the whole thing through the practices without understanding the principles, you can get completely bogged down. Whereas if you understand the principles, the practices will work better, and... if you do need to make an adjustment, you can make an adjustment, according to the principles, which is exactly what Charlotte Mason would have done with her, you know, personally trained teachers did, as they went. And it was fine. And so, it's such a principle-based philosophy of education that I really wanted to articulate these principles in a way that makes more sense to our 21st century moms of thinkers. Because the way that Charlotte Mason presented it, you know, she presented it to her audience for her time. And I just think, you know these principles are so important. But the way that she worded some of them, the meaning is really not as obvious to us as it was to her. So that's the motivation behind writing the book, even though I know that books about educational philosophy are not, you know, the most exciting.

J -

Well, for people like me they are, but yeah, right.

K -

Right, right, right.

J -

But I totally agree with you that, yeah, it's like, getting to the...starting with the how and not understanding the why. And so, you can get bogged down in the mud of all the nitty gritty details and lose, like, the big picture. And I think that leads to a lot of moms getting burnt out and just being like, okay, forget it. I can't do it. And I'm like, well, you're not even, you don't even understand the whole philosophy or big picture, so you really aren't even doing it like that. You know, you gotta embrace that why beforehand, and understand that fully. And, like you were saying, like, that will lead to the practices and I do think that kinda helps mitigate some of that burnout that can happen if you're just bogged down in too much detail.




Today's episode is brought to you by A Gentle Feast. A Gentle Feast is a complete curriculum for grades one through twelve that is family centered, inspired by Ms. Mason's programs and philosophy, and rooted in books, beauty, and Biblical Truth. You can find out how smooth and easy days are closer than you think at AGentleFeast.com.




So, can you give an overview...we talk about, you know, for people aren't super familiar with Charlotte Mason's principles, what do you mean by that and what will kind of...what was she doing at her time with those?

K -

So, what we have today, in her, in like, with her final book, her ??? were 20 principles. She actually articulated them as 18 principles, only in 1905, which was about almost fifteen after she originally gave the lectures that were published as Home Education. So, in, you know, roughly 1889, 1890, they formed a group that was the Parent's Educational Union, and she started her teacher training college shortly after that, and started training young women in these principles and the educational methods that sort of worked them out, so that they could go on to be governesses, and eventually, they also provided teachers for schools through her training college.

But she didn't actually articulate these principles in the form that we have them until 1905. But they were there. They were absolutely there. If you look at the material that was, that they wrote, from the, you know, the founding documents, so to speak, you can see the principles in kind of an embryo form. And then she articulated them in 1905 as 18 principles, which is a lot, and then, and later on, she added three more, and combined a couple, which is why it goes through 18 to 20. Even though she added three new ones.

So, we have, today, we look and we say, Charlotte Mason's 20 principles, and that is a lot of principles. That feels like a lot of things, you know? Anything that you have and it has 20 steps to complete it, that's a lot of things, and the way that the principles are written, the first one, children are born persons. Okay. Great. I get that. You know? And then you go on to principle number two, where it says, they're not born good or bad, and most people just get bogged down right there. Just get complete...and they're just like, what? Then they go on to the next one, you know, and the principles of authority and obedience. And that feels uncomfortable to our modern sensibilities.

J -

That's true, yeah.

K -

You know, and, so the way that Charlotte Mason wrote them and articulated them, doesn't really resonate, I don't think, with modern educators, and certainly not with, you know, homeschool moms who don't necessarily have a background in educational, you know, philosophy. So, over the years, I became convinced, and really, you know, absolutely certain that the two most important principles are children are born persons and education is the science of relations. Now, I've been sure of that for a really long time. And, as I, like I said, as I began to see that people were kinda starting to get discouraged about Charlotte Mason because they were thinking that it involved doing all of these things just exactly right, I thought, well, wouldn't it be nice if I could, if I understood how all the principles... like, okay, I know these are the two most important ones. But it would be nice if I could understand how all the rest of them also relate to those two. And maybe could even put it into a sort of graphic. So that, you know, that it would, they'd just make them more accessible to people. That was my kind of thinking process. And so, as I started working on this book, or the preliminary working on the book, I really, I had to figure some things out for myself. If you've read it, you know that, you know, I originally was thinking, you know, along one line, and I, all of a sudden, you know, I would read something and it would just kinda come into focus for me and I would realize that, okay, this is the exact relationship that exists for this principle. And I gradually came to see that all of the principles, all the 20 or 18 or whatever, are really adjunct or associated principles of the first two, or the two primary principles, children are born persons and education is the science of relation.

So those two are really the only ones that matter. The ones that drive everything else. And all the rest of the principles just sort of explicate those two. They add something or you know, refine parts of it. And so, every single one of the rest of the 20 is really a part of those two. And so, when I realized that, I feel like presenting the principles in that way makes it feel much less overwhelming.

J -

Oh, yeah, I totally agree. And it's so interesting too, because one of the principles being education is the science of relations which is exactly what you were doing, right? Like, you were...yeah.

K -

Related to each other.

J -

Yes. See, it works, yeah. So, let's dive into those two, just to kinda give people that, the few broad essential principles here, cause, you know, you can't, obviously, go through everything and all the different ones that connect to it. But, so, children are persons, and it's so funny, like, when I introduce that to people who aren't familiar with her writings, they're like, well, duh. Like, they're not born, like, aliens or something. Like, I'm like, no, it means so much more than that. So.

K -

Exactly. Exactly. And right, on the surface of it, that's just so obvious, cause children are born persons. But really, when it comes to education, and you take that principle, you think about what a person is and what a person needs and how a person grows, and you say, okay, we're going to educate according to this, you know, to this principle. According to this guideline. It completely takes off the table, you know, the educational apparatus that assumes that children are machines and their brains, you know, are something you can program. A lot of modern education... well, you taught in school, so you, I'm sure you know where this, a lot of modern educational practices are based on things like, you know, behaviorism. The idea that, you know, you stay in line, respond, and you know, just, you just repeat things until you get this automatic response, and so we're treating children as if they are, you know, ???, or we're treating them like they're computers, you know, that we can...

J -

And we don't, I think, most people would be like, oh, no. Like, I don't, you know, children aren’t computers. We're not trying to, like, input factory, you know, data and out spits this other, you know, at the end, out spits this product. You know, they're probably, oh, we don't do that. But I'm like, no, but the methods that they're using to teach the children, that's the...all the children are getting the same thing. Right? We're doing tests and studies to make sure if we input this, output is this. You know, that...we...you could say that. We don't really think that about children, but, our methods showing how we view children, yes. And that's what, I think, Charlotte Mason was trying to say here, right?

K -

Exactly. And so, there's so many layers to understanding what it means that children are born persons. You know, that gives us a certain parameter in which we have to operate. That means we have to treat them a certain way. It means that we are limited. We can't do certain things, because they are persons. And so all of the principles, like, that immediately, as Charlotte Mason wrote them, and I don't know, you know, if all of your listeners are necessarily gonna be familiar with the principles exactly in the order that they...but like, the second principle that's so disturbing to people, they're not born good or bad, but with possibilities for good and evil. Well, that's just another...that principle is just there to explain a part of what Charlotte Mason means by children are born persons. It means that, you know, they have a conscious. They know what's right and wrong. They have the power to act and do right things and wrong things, and we need to make sure that they know which is which.

J -

Yes. For sure. Yeah. That's good. And then, talk a little bit about that education is science of relations. We were...you know, we, I joked that that's what you were doing, but, so for someone who's not familiar, what that means, how would you kind of explain that to them?

K -

Right. So, education is the science of relations, just like children are born persons, is a multilayered, you know, there are many levels of understanding. So, like the initial first idea about relationships is, you know, like a personal relationship. Person to person, or like a baby's relationship with basic, you know, concepts of color and size and texture and taste. You know, with the world around them, you form relationships with firsthand contact. And then, education is the science of relations, you know, as a person grows and a person matures, not only do they form a relations, but they begin to see the relationships that exist in things around them. And it's one of the ‘funnest’ things about being a Charlotte Mason educator is watching your kid make those kinda... you know, to be reading a book and all of a sudden, you know, that reminds them of something else, and they will tell you about connections that they've made and you can never, never plan or predict what those connections will be. Because the world of full of these relations. And, it's a lot like...it's our job in teaching our children and letting them, you know, form their relationships isn't to, you know, stand in the way and tell them exactly what relationship they have to know about, or how strong any given relationship they have with some knowledge would be. I mean, because they are persons, they are going to perceive that we may not have ever seen, and we learn things from them. And they're going to have, you know, stronger feelings and stronger relationships for some kind of knowledge than others. And as they grow and as they learn, they develop these relationships, they see these relationships, and ultimately, Charlotte Mason said, all knowledge comes from God. All knowledge, you know, is delivered into the world by God. And so, she divides knowledge into, you know, three big, broad categories. Knowledge of God, knowledge of man, and knowledge of the universe, and all of those things...you know, so even when you're, you know, studying spiders or reading poetry, all of the things are ultimately drawing you closer to God, because, I mean, that's one...that's the point of the 20th principle is, don't divide things up into sacred and secular. Cause all knowledge comes from God and you just, you know, you don't have to feel like you're wasting your time if you study some area of knowledge that isn't specifically religious, you know, as we understand that.

J -

Yes. And I think it just because she had such a high view of children, you know, that first principle, that education is the science of relations, also does connect to that one in the fact that it lets children be responsible for their self-education. That, you know, I think, as a teacher, I did a lot of the work of making those connections for my students, and okay, well, this, you know, we're gonna learn about the oceans and so, I'm gonna find stories about oceans, we're gonna math problems about oceans, we're gonna do experiments, like...and trying to integrate all the different subjects and all the different modalities and, you know, who's doing all the work there? Me. And, as opposed to, now, in homeschooling my older children, using this, you know, that they are the ones that will make those connections. In a way, it's very freeing as a parent, but it also takes a lot of faith to trust that they will make those connections. I don't have to be the one doing it for them.

K -

It does. It definitely does take faith, but, to follow this method, because it's not, it doesn't match up to a set of academic... it's about building a person and helping a person to grow and become, you know, the very best person that they can be.

J -

Yeah, one of the stories I tell that, in terms of connections such as, I just love it. My son was seven, and we were learning about Andrew Jackson in history. And then, a couple...it's several months later, we were out on a nature walk. And he's like, Mom, look, it's Andrew Jackson. And I'm like, okay, dude, what are you talking about? And, I turn around, and there was a hickory tree. And, you know, his nickname was Old Hickory, and so it's like, this total connection, I would have never made, right? But he owned, and that was him and one of things, you know, I taught school, they, you know, studies have shown how kids remember more when they do make these connections and the ideas are tied together, and so, you know, we...oh, how do we word it? It was like, connected to man. Connected to, like, knowledge, so like, is there another book that this reminds you of? I just remember asking that question, you know, like, and I would read a picture book or something like that. Or does this remind you of anything that's happened in your life? What connection to self. Yeah, so those three, we would teach the kids, and you know, most of the time, they're just looking at me, like, deer in the headlights, like, what? You know? But, you're forcing to make a, cause, you know, well, studies have shown, this is how you're gonna learn, right? So, but you're like forcing this connection that they didn't ever make, you know? But when they make it on their own, in their own time, in their own way, and you can't force it and you can't plan for it, right? It becomes a part of them.

K -

And narration is the technique, you know, the method that helps to tie it all together. Because...and ???

J -

Yeah, you're missing out. Yeah.

K -

...mind is working and they're making connections as they go.

J -

Right. For sure. So, how, then, we have these principles and they all kinda tie to these two major ones, and I just love that, because I, that helps me so much, too. I'm such a, like, just, I love when things are put together, it helps me think better, but, if someone's like, okay, well what's the difference between those principles, then, and then, like, what am I actually doing, like, the methods here. Are they, how do they interrelate?

K -

Right. Well, I think that, like I said, when you have these two methods, or excuse me, these two principles, and you approach something like math, I think math is one of those subjects that is really easy to take a utilitarian approach. If you, we just do this, you know, for practical life, it's gonna show up on tests, you need to start a level of math just to, you know, buy groceries, not over, you know, extend your bank account. Just to live, like, you know, figure out, you know, how much gas and how many miles you can go with what's left in your tank and you just have to have math. So, it's very utilitarian approach to math. But when you approach math with the idea that education is science of relations, and you look at math, and this is one of those things that, this is one of the subjects that Charlotte Mason doesn't actually have a special method for, quite as much as she does for some other things. She says, a lot depends on the teacher for this particular subject. And I think it's because it's one of those things, math is one of those things that, it's difficult to put into the curriculum. The excitement and the interest for the relationships that exist in math, because math is sort of a...it's a language in a way, and it's a representation of something that represents absolute truth. You know, two plus two is four. And our minds, the natural, you know, rational, logical minds that God has given us appreciate and understand when we see something that simple, such as self-evident truth. It doesn't require real math to figure this out, we can see it, you know, we can touch it, it makes absolute sense, and to understand and appreciate those kind of absolute truths tells you a whole lot about the universe even if you're not thinking about it at the time. And then, within math, you have these relationships that exist, oneness is a concept. Twoness is concept. Threeness is a concept, and there are relationships between, you know, the even numbers and the odd numbers. There are relationships between addition and multiplication and between addition and subtraction. And so, if you approach math in this relational way and let your children understand the relationships that exist in math, it becomes far less intimidating. Far less pressure. And most of us didn't learn math this way. I certainly didn't. And it's not that easy, but it helps you to find a curriculum, I mean, if you have that idea of a relational approach to math, it will help you choose, you know, what do I do for math, but, the eternal question of...??? What are we gonna do for math? If you appreciate Charlotte Mason's principles and you want to take a relational approach to mathematics, you know, that will narrow the field for you confidently because it's difficult, actually, to find a curriculum that helps a child to build that kind of relational understanding.

J -

Oh, for sure, yeah. There's not that many out there. There's getting more, but yeah.

K -

One of the things that I really grappled with, and I...Charlotte Mason is really explicit about the fact that the purpose of a lot of our reading about things like history, for example, is not that our children will remember all the details. That is not the point. But, a relationship with the past, an understanding of the principles that drive human conduct, and the consequences that arise from certain kinds of conduct, and she says that history should give them, you know, a pageant of events in their backyard, and she explicitly says, and it doesn't matter so much if they can recall this or that event. And so, if you get ahold of the principles that children are born persons, that education is the science of relationships, it takes a lot of pressure off. It's stressful if your kids can't remember the things that you... But really, really, how much do you remember from first grade? Like, what did you learn in first grade?

J -

How to tie my shoe.

K -

Nothing probably. But we don't remember that. It's okay that they don't remember every single thing that you read. You're building them up as persons. It's still developing their relational understanding of the world.

J -

Yes. And even as, I think, one of the joys of being a homeschooling parent is getting to go through those things again and now, as an adult, being able to make way more connection than I ever did before. And of course, I, you know, didn't learn according to this method growing up, but...

K -

A few of us didn't.

J -

Yeah. And there's such a part of me that's so tempted to be, like, oh, you know, especially, like, if it's over reading our island story, but then, and my daughter's like, American history class, they're also talking about, like, William and Mary and then, reading this other book, and they mention them. And so it's like, ah! I wanna be like, let me tell you what I learned today. Let me tell you my connections, you know? Like, I act like, zip my mouth, sometimes, cause I'm like, okay, no, no, no, no. But, you know, the joy that I get as a grown woman when I make a connection like that, and I don't wanna take that joy away from my kids.

K -

Right. In a way, we are repairing our own educational deficiencies when we educate our children with Charlotte Mason's methods, but we can't expect them to have those same adult, you know, connections and understanding. We actually...however poor, you know, our education might have been, we still know more than our kids do. And we can make more connections, and the ones that they make for themselves, the ones that they lay hold of, you know, are just going to, like, excite them and lay that foundation for them and I don't think there's anything wrong with a parent sharing, you know, one, you know, things that excite them or notice them, just because that encourages the ongoing conversation. But, like you say, you don't wanna overwhelm them, or expect them to necessarily fully appreciate what you do.

J -

Right. That's why it's good to have other homes... Charlotte Mason homeschool mamas that you can call. Be like, guess what I learned? Yeah. So, how do these principles...and one of the things I love about ??? but, just, how this...they applied so much more than just what we would consider, like, traditional academic learning. So, how do these principles just touch into all parts of life?

K -

Well, really, when Charlotte Mason originally gave her lectures that she titled Home Education, it was really because she was talking to parents and about what any parent, regardless of whether or not they were, you know, doing the academic part of their children's teaching. What any kind of educational input parents have to have in their children's lives, she's talking about educating them to become, you know, responsible, moral adults. Now that's really the initial and primary purpose of these educational principles. And the more academic in school implementation came later. You know, in what she was doing, so, if you take out the principles she added, later, because those are the practical ones, and you just look at the original 18, they are really more about child rearing, about helping a person to develop their conscious and develop their, strengthen their will, and learn what limitations are their own thinking and logic and reasoning so that they can make good choices. And then, have the discipline and the habits in place that will help them to, you know, sort of strengthen their character, because that's really what it's all about. That's really the purpose of all of these principles, is about character formation and character development, which was of a much greater concern to Charlotte Mason, actually, than academics.

J -

Yes. Right. Which, I think it should be for all of us, yes.

K -

Right. Right. So, yeah, the, you know, the academic part of it is just, that's just one small part, really, of what Charlotte Mason's principles are really addressing, because they're really addressing what we would think of more properly, I suppose, as child rearing. You know. And giving children an understanding of their own nature as a human being, and their needs, and their duties and obligations as a person in the world that God has created.

J -

Yes, and that's why I think it's, yeah, it's so key to have an understanding of these principles, and not get bogged down in so much of the nitty gritty, like you were talking about, the three subject, like three foreign languages and these academic things, because you're really are missing the whole person, and the whole environment and the whole atmosphere and you can't just separate them.

K -

Right. It's a little bit like, you know, what Paul wrote in First Corinthians, you know, he says, if I can all of these wonderful things, but I don't have love, it's kinda pointless. And that's what's gonna happen if you do all the things, you know, you follow all the academic expectations that Charlotte Mason, you know, has, in her programs, but you miss these principles, you may very well end up, you know...

J -

Noisy gong or a clanging cymbal, right.

K -

Right. It isn't gonna be what you wanted it to be.

J -

That's actually the memory verse that me and my kids have been doing this term, so, that's funny.

K -

...that any academic or educational method runs the risk of becoming what she called mechanical, wooden system. And her principles are no different. If you think that you can achieve certain results by doing, you know, one, two, three, you are missing those vital living principles that are really the point of the whole thing.

J -

Yeah. And then, you've fallen to like, a modern educational system is that kind of industrial factory input output mentality, and you miss, yeah, just the beauty of it and how different it is, so, yeah. That's why I think your book was so key and...so, if you were talking to a new mom who's just starting out learning about Charlotte Mason, what would you tell her? What advice would you give her?

K -

Well, I definitely think that it's one of these...Charlotte Mason is one of these things that you need to make sure that you're thinking about why and not just how.

J -

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes!

K -

You are going to find yourself some resources that are going to address that for you. You can ask how, but don't...not to the, you know, to the exclusion of asking why. So, you know, don't just ask, you know, what do we do for math, what do we do for phonics. How did Charlotte teach reading? That's not the most important thing here. Really want to make sure you understand the why you're doing what you're doing. And with narration, I think it's really important, because when you're, if you're a new homeschool mom and you're introducing something like narration, that you're not fully familiar with yourself, you need to understand why it matters, because it's, you know, if you know that, it's gonna help you over that initial, you know, rough part that you're going to have when you introduce something that nobody's used to doing just yet.

J -

Yes. Yes.

K -

And if it comes to, I personally think that, if you possibly can, that everybody who, you know, every Charlotte Mason homeschooling mom should read Charlotte Mason's own words. But, I don't think that everybody needs to read all six volumes.

J -

Right.

K -

That is a daunting task. It represents some, oh goodness, now I can't remember. Two thousand? Three thousand? Pages of reading at least. And it's very repetitive.

J -

Yes. Yes.

K -

I heard a testimonial from some students who went to the Charlotte Mason College. You know, they...back in the fifties, fifty... they were there. She was not there at that point. We were just like, her books were so wordy, we wish she had condensed...So, you know, for a modern homeschooling mom...

J -

Yes. Right.

K -

You don't have to make reading all six volumes a priority. But I do think my advice would be to pick one and to read that one more than once. Rather than reading one, two, three, four, read one, and then again and again and again. At least three times. Because every time you read, you'll understand it a little bit better. The writing is very dense.

J -

Oh yeah.

K -

I do encourage people to read Charlotte Mason, but I don't think that they need to feel obligated to read the whole thing.

J -

Yes. That's a very good point. And, yeah, especially starting out, right? Like, this is a journey, you're learning alongside your kids, right? You have got time to invest any, do you wanna keep feeding your own mind? So, just keep reading a little bit. Couple pages. ???

K -

...as an introduction. You don't have to know anything about Charlotte Mason, except that you wanted to know something about Charlotte Mason. I don't assume that everybody's, you know, familiar with something else.

J -

Right. And I do like the fact that you just do such a great job of explaining it and breaking it down, but then at the end, you do get really practical with the different subjects in one or two, so it's not just all educational philosophy and kind of the big picture, but you do bring it down for a mom who is just maybe starting out.

K -

Because ultimately, you know, principles have to be worked out in practice. And looking at the way that Charlotte Mason did that, and making the connection between the ideas of the principles and the practices, helps you to, you know, to see them. And I really do recommend that people try Charlotte Mason's specific practices, you know, in everything. If you have to adjust, that's fine, but if you try with an understanding of the principles, at least you'll have a rough idea of, you know, what she was hoping to achieve by dealing with those different things. You know, picture studies, six pictures from one artist. That sort of thing.

J -

Yes. Right. Yeah, see, you can understand more and appreciate more of why am I including this. There's this weird thing that I never heard of before, right. Well, thank you so much. I always ask people at the end if they have a favorite, and I'm sure, you know, for you, especially, having read so much of her, this'd be very hard to pick, but, do you have a favorite Charlotte Mason quote you'd like to share with us?

K -

Oh, yes, that is terribly difficult...??? And I actually gave you one, which is one of my favorites, in which...it's from Volume Three, where she says, the question is not how much does the youth know, but how much does he care, because that's that relational, you know, perspective of education. That it matters more that you care about what you know than that you can spout off a bunch of facts or information. But another quote that I really like, because it sums up these two principles, and what Charlotte Mason, you know...like, I feel like she actually...I don't know if she articulated it herself, but that these are the two most important principles or not, but she says, is also in Volume Three, which is school education. She says, men know thyself as a counsel which might render child, know thyself and thy relations to God and man and nature. And I feel like those, that those two things...know ourself. That's children are born persons. Know what it means to be a person. And thy relations to God and man and nature, that's education is the science of relations. These are the relationships that a person needs to form. And if that just encapsulates, you know, that one sentence, I call it Charlotte Mason in a nutshell. Well, the essence of what education is really all about. And then, you know, all the nitty gritty details become secondary.

J -

And that's great too, cause I often get asked by people, like, how do I explain this method to someone who, or you know, this philosophy that someone has never heard of Charlotte Mason before? Cause I could just, like, go on and on and on, and like, they just...eyes just glaze over, and, like, is there a succinct way to like, describe this. So, I love that, right? What you just said. Just share that quote, yeah. Just the two things, ya know? That would be a much easier way for people to explain it, so.

Well, thank you so much for...yeah.

K -

The short version.

J -

Well, thank you so much, Karen, this has been delightful, and I know this is super helpful for people. And it's just so, so inspiring. Like, I don't know...when I talk about the big picture, it motivated me to keep doing the work, right? Because it can be so discouraging some days, when you're always caught in the details. And so, even as moms, it's just so important to keep filling our minds, and keep reminding ourselves of the way. So, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today.

K -

Well, thank you for inviting me. I enjoyed talking to you and meeting you, Julie.




J -

Thank you for joining us today on the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I would love to meet you in person. All of the Great Homeschool Conventions have been rescheduled to 2021. Go to GreatHomeschoolConventions.com to find a convention near you.

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