CM 2 Episode #14 How to Get Your Kids Outside and Wild About Math with Julie H. Ross and Rachel Tidd
Links and Resources:
Show Notes:
Meet Rachel:
Rachel Tidd is the author of Wild Math, and a homeschooling mother of two wild and adventurous boys. They live in a log cabin just outside of Ithaca, NY where they enjoy tromping through woods, swimming in the lakes, and exploring gorges. Prior to having children, Rachel taught first grade as well as grades 3-6 as a special education teacher. She holds an M.S.Ed. in Special and Elementary Education from Bank Street College of Education and a B.S. in Environmental Science and Analysis from SUNY- College of Environmental Science and Forestry.
Resources:
The books I recommended were
Denise Gaskins books and Cathy Fosnot's book Games for Number Sense
Games:
Absolute Zero
Ten Go Fish
Sleeping Queens
Math Stacks
Quote: Mathematics depend upon the teacher rather than upon the text-book and few subjects are worse taught; chiefly because teachers have seldom time to give the inspiring ideas, what Coleridge calls, the 'Captain' ideas, which should quicken imagination.- Volume 6 page 223
Show Transcript:
Julie -
Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show, a podcast dedicated to discussing Ms. Mason's philosophy, principles, and methods. It is our hope that each episode will leave you inspired and offer practical wisdom on how to provide this rich, living education in your modern homeschool. So pull up a chair, we're glad you're here.
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Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host Julie Ross, and before we get started today, I wanted to give a listener shoutout to Olivia CMC, who left this review on iTunes. She said, so many helpful tips. Julie is so down to earth and gives practical wisdom on how to implement the Charlotte Mason education in your home. So, Olivia, thank you for taking the time to write that. And I know we are all just so busy, but if you would just take a second to pause this podcast at the end even, and leave a review on iTunes it, I would greatly appreciate it. It helps listeners know about the podcast and iTunes will push it out to more people if there are more ratings and reviews.
Today, I'm going to be interviewing Rachel Tidd, from Wild Math. And if you are anything like me, the idea of teaching math to my children has always been something slightly intimidating, as it is not a favorite subject of mine. I really love the work that Rachel is doing. Her Wild Math curriculum, focusing on using natural objects, kind of letting children explore the mathematical concepts, and most importantly, about doing math outside if possible. So I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation.
Rachel Tidd is the creator of the Wild Math Curriculum. She's also a homeschooling mother of two wild and adventurous boys. They live in a log cabin just outside of Ithaca, New York, where they enjoy tromping through the woods, swimming in lakes, and exploring gorges. Prior to having children, Rachel taught first grade as well as grades three through six as a special education teacher. She holds a Master's degree in education and in special and elementary education, from Bank Street College of Education, and a BS in environmental science from the SUNY College of Environmental Science in Syracuse, NY. So let's jump into my conversation with Rachel.
Hi everyone! Welcome to the Charlotte Mason Show, I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I'm here today with Rachel Tidd from Wild Math Curriculum. Hi Rachel.
Rachel -
Hi.
Julie -
Thanks for joining us today. We are talking about math, and I have to quite be honest, that kind of like, makes my stomach a little queasy to talk about. So, but I love your approach to math and it makes it not so scary. So, I'm excited to share that with our listeners today. So, before we get started, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, and your family, and how you got started in your homeschool journey?
Rachel -
Sure. So, my name's Rachel Tidd. I live in a log cabin in upstate New York with my two children, Finn and Taro. They're ten and seven. And my husband. We love to go outside, explore, and travel when we're not locked down. I have a master's degree in general and special education. The elementary level. And I was a teacher for many years in both elementary and special education. And, I wrote the Wild Math Curriculum, which is an outdoor-based math curriculum for kids.
J -
Yes. And so I'm so curious, what made you think, I should write a math curriculum? Cause that just sounds very daunting to me.
R -
It totally is daunting, and I never, like, thought I was very much of a math teacher. I always loved books and was like, really into the ELA part of it. But, I had my second son, who was a very different learner. He had some sensory needs. He had some attention difficulties. You know, I mean, and a lot of it is, you see a lot of this nowadays. A lot of kids have these issues. It's very, very common.
But both of my kids went to an all outdoor preschool and they loved it. It was amazing. However, you eventually have to leave preschool. We were already homeschooling, so we knew we were going to be homeschooling. But I also knew that my youngest, with so many difficulties, when I talked to his teachers at preschool, they didn't see any of those issues. So he was able to focus. He didn't have any of the sensory issues we were having at home. So, I really started researching and thinking about how I could integrate that type of learning into homeschooling. And how I could like, use those methods to help him learn, you know, things you have to learn. Like addition and subtraction. You know. And I really couldn't find very much at the elementary level. There's a lot out there, for younger kids. So once you cross that threshold of elementary, there wasn't a lot out there. And so I started trying different things and I actually had a really good friend say, Rachel, you need to write this down and you need to share these activities. I'm like, no, no, no, no, that's a bit...I don't have time for that. No.
But, I eventually did, I listened to her. And the rest is history, so.
J -
Yeah, that's so great. I'm very thankful for very good friends like those, who speak truth, because I had a very good friend told me the same thing about A Gentle Feast. I'm like, nobody's gonna...like, you know, this is just what I do at home. Nobody's gonna want this. You know? Like, you can't...isn't this what everybody does? You know? Yeah. But not everybody has the time, right? And with math, I wouldn't even know where to start, so. It's good to have other people who are gifted in those areas that we can kind of collaborate with, and go with, so. That's really neat.
So, talk about how your curriculum is kind of different than a traditional math curriculum.
R -
Well, first of all, there's no workbooks.
J -
Yeah.
R -
There's no...you know, everything's basically designed to do outside for the most part. It's not that you have to do everything outside. It's that you can. And then, there's also...so basically, it's structured with...it takes the entire year of a typical US grade, like first grade, and it has every single skill, usually more than what's required, cause I kind of combined everything that I thought was really important. Some curriculums don't do certain things, and we do.
And then, I list activities, especially in the younger grades, mostly the skill, and then activities of how to teach and learn those concepts outside. So whether it's, you know, place value, or addition facts, or subtractions facts...and then there's often...especially as the grades get higher, there's a little helpful things for parents and teachers of how to teach it, or little quick reminders of things like, you know, order of operations that we may have forgotten. And that kinda thing. And then at the end of each chapter topic, I also am big on books and math games. So, if it's a geometry chapter in first grade, I have a bunch of books that are appropriate for first graders. Like, picture books. And math games that would be good for that grade level. And those are great too, especially when the weather is like, dangerous. It happens. Or you know, you just...in the winter, you go out a little less, and these are great ways to kind of integrate some math in your days.
You can also do this...a lot of the activities inside if you had to. I always recommend collecting natural materials and keeping a little clutch so that you can pull out....
J -
So can you give me an example of, like, a lesson or what some of the materials you may use?
R -
Yeah. So, I love to teach fractions with mud pies. I...
J -
Wow. That's a mom of boys right there.
R -
Right? Yeah. So, for mud cakes, we sometimes do mud brownies, whatever. Mud pizza. So, I love to...I have, like, old cake pans, or I get them from the thrift store or just ones that I don't use anymore. I like the rectangle ones, especially for fractions. so, and you take a knife or a stick and you can divide those fractions and show those fractional parts and you mark them off with, like, rocks. You know, if you wanna do one third, you can cover that one third in green grass so you can really see that third.
And then you can show how to multiply them by slicing into perfect ways. If you want one half of one third, you slice it across. Thirds marked out. And I go over them. And, like, I even did division with fractions that way in my new sixth grade one. So, it's really, you know, really...mud pies are a great learning tool you can use all the way up. And it just so, it's a lot more concrete. You can see what you're doing, and if you mess up, or you can experiment with it, and if it doesn't work out, you can erase it and cut it. So, it's a great, great tool, yeah.
J -
I also liked your lesson on using sticks for place value.
R -
Yeah. Yeah, you know, we often kind of get in this trap that we have to have all these beautiful math...
J -
Oh my gosh, yes. Plastic things, yes.
R -
Certain math manipulatives for this certain concept. But it's really not true. So, I love to make...and I kind of like, suggest that parents have the children help make these with them because there's a lot of learning. So it's basically bundles of ten sticks as you are ten, in place value. And then single sticks as your ones. And then you could do a bundle of a hundred, or ten bundles of ten.
J -
Yeah.
R -
Just making those can really help kids to see the importance of the ten...these ten system. And then you can use those to teach place value. You can use those to teach, you know, addition and subtraction with carrying. So, you can literally regroup those ten sticks and put them in the ten place.
J -
Yeah.
R -
So, you know, and that doesn't cost anything. And I know...
J -
Right!
R -
We'll say, you know, I don't have sticks. I live in an urban area, or I have no trees in my backyard. Which is very realistic. I'm near New York City, so, it's...that's a real thing. And I suggest either collecting them when you're out on a...
J -
Yeah. On a nature walk or something. Yeah.
R -
On your nature walk. Or bring them back. Or popsicle sticks are really good supplements.
J -
Yeah, that's what we get. With my kids, it's popsicle sticks. And rubber bands. Yes.
R -
Great. I use them in other ways too. I ??? and stick them around the yard.
J -
Oh, that's fun. Yeah. But thinking through and kind of preparing some of that stuff ahead of time, so you're not like, oh, it's today's math lesson and we need ten sticks. Oh, where are we gonna get ten sticks, kids? Like...
R -
Right. Especially if you don't have a lot of those things around. But it can be part of the involving the kids in...
J -
Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah.
R -
Your math nature walk, collecting them, and then, making them. That could be a whole beginning place value activity is making those sticks. I mean, even older kids. You'd be surprised. There's a lot of, like, learning in the keeping track. Like, how are you gonna keep track of how many you had and the restacking how many? Well, now I have fifty. I need to keep going. You know, like, oh no, now I have a hundred and ten. You know. You'd be surprised, even older kids can get a lot out of that.
J -
Oh, for sure. Yeah. And all the other skills that are involved with being outside in nature and playing and gathering and observing and yeah. All the other things that Charlotte Mason talks all about. And then, her book, Home Education, I think this really relates. She talks about not using abstract forms. So she says, but the educationalists of these days forgot, when they gave children boxes of form and stuck up huge hexagons and pentagons and whatnot, in every available screw and space, the immense capacity for being bored, which is common to us all, and is far more strongly developed in children than in grownup people, the objects which bore us or the persons who bore us, appear to wear a bald place in the mind and that turns from them sick aversion. Dickens showed us the pathos of it in the schoolroom of the little ??? which was bountifully supplied with objects of uncompromising outline.
Ruskin, which was an art critic in, like a Renaissance man of her time, who she quotes all the time, but she says, exposes this fallacy. No geometric forms of bound the skeletons of which living beauty and contour and gesture and hill and plant is the covering. And the skeleton is beautiful and wonderful to the mind, which is already entered within the portals of geography. But children should not be presented with a skeleton, but with the living forms, upon which clothe it.
So, he's talking here, you know, about those little plastic cubes and triangles and pyramids and things that we have in school, and you know, he's saying, those are boring. Those have no meaning to children. Let them be getting these natural forms, you know, the hills and the plants and the things that are those shapes, that are actually interesting to children. And she quotes in here from...she talks about the schoolroom and Dickens ??? which is from the book, Hard Times. And I just wanna read a little passage from that too.
So, in the book, if you're not familiar with the book, Hard Times, there's kind of like, Dickens poking at the Victorian kind of factory model schooling. And, the chapter's called Murdering the Innocence, so. A little strong, of how Dickens really feels about these kind of schools. And obviously, the teacher's name, Brad Grind, right? It has a lot of meaning, like the idea of grad, like I've graduated from school, I know everything. And then, Grind, like we're grinding into children, all this information, right? In the grind of school, we think of too.
But this is how he's described in the book. It says, Thomas Grad Grind, a man of realities, a man of facts and calculations. A man who proceeds upon the principle that two and two are four and nothing over, and who is not to be talked into allowing for anything over. Thomas Grad Grind; Sir Thomas. Thomas Grad Grind, with a rule and a pair of scales, and the multiplication table always in his pocket, sir, ready to wail and measure any parcel of human nature until he reads exactly what it comes to. It is a mere question of figures. A case of simple arithmetic. You might hope to get some other nonsensical belief into the head of George Grad Grind or Augustus Grad Grind. But not into the head of Thomas Grad Grind, no sir.
And then, in the chapter, there's a girl, Sissy, who wants to, like...there's a lesson on flowers. Like, why would you put flowers on wallpaper? Flowers don't naturally grow upon walls, do you? Do they? Like, that's just fancy and nonsense, you know? And the little...Sissy says that, you know, I love flowers. And, he's like, you do? So, do you not, do you not put a table and chair over flowers? Do you not walk upon flowers? And she says, it wouldn't hurt them, sir. They wouldn't crush and wither if you please, sir. I would just put pictures on the wall. I would fancy that. And then he kinda goes against fancy and he said, you are to be, in all things, regulated and governed by fact. We hope to have before long a board of fact, composed of commissioners of fact, who will force the people to be a people of fact and nothing but fact. You must discard the word fancy altogether. You have nothing to do with it. You're not to have any object of use or ornament that would be a contradiction of fact. You don't walk upon flowers in fact. You can't be allowed to walk upon flowers on carpet.
Anyway, she just keeps going on and on about this poor little girl, about that, but, you see in him a very mathematical kind of...there's not permission for children to have fancy. Everything is just drilled into them. And so, anyway, Charlotte Mason was saying, in, you know, her book, where the reference is that, but that's not what we want, right? That we want to allow the opportunity for fancy and for real objects, to get their minds around all of that, which I think ties in really well with what you...
R -
You know, I read, and I can't, I don't remember the exact source, but I do, I have read some...a study, that said that kids who use natural materials to learn math, especially, the concept stuck better and made more sense. As opposed to, like a plastic or an artificial math manipulative.
J -
I'd love to find that, yeah.
R -
I know. I need to look back for that. I should write that down. But, so that made me think of that idea. And I think that's where, you know, that kind of mentality of drill and you know, facts, and just kind of, like, the grind of math, is where a lot of our personal math anxiety as adults, and you know, we all grew up in a similar time where math was, is very, was operational, and you hear about the procedure. And I feel like math today, where they're trying to make it less about procedure and have kids think more flexibly about numbers and shape and, you know, putting things together and taking them apart, in many different ways. There's no one way, one right night anymore to solve, like, say, you know a multi-digit addition problem. There's multiple, and anyway that you do it, if it works, is okay. You know, it's not that mention, you have to carry the one.
J -
Yeah, right.
R -
One strategy that you can use, it does work, it's efficient. However, if you want to do it a different way, we should encourage our kids to try different ways. Or can you think of a...or explain to me your way?
J -
Right, right. Yeah, and that's what I've seen from using, kind of, Charlotte Mason's approach to mathematics in the early years, as my son really...and sometimes, I'm like...he'll try to explain to me what he's doing, and I'm thinking, that's totally not right. Dear God, I don't even know what you're talking about. What? And I wanna interrupt him and be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're supposed to do this. But I don't, and I just sit there, and then he ends up getting the right answer. I couldn't tell you how he got it. I'm just like, um, okay, great, like... but he, like I say, he's like, allergic to pencils, because he can't just, like, do a workbook page. He has to...he wants to explain to me, well, I'm taking this...this number has a five in it, so I'm gonna take the five out of this and put it with this one, and I'm like, what? Okay. Yes.
R -
But it builds their understanding of numbers and connections between numbers, so much better, that they can use that later in...when things get more complex, and build even more connections. And that's what we call, like, numerous... so, so important. And when I, you know, writing the K through five of these guides, I really could see the connections and how, you know, different strategies or methods that was showing as a younger, at a younger age, you know, pulling different parts of numbers out, and putting lines on it. Use easy numbers like tens, really help kids later on, you know, just doing it in order like, really helped me kinda make my own connections that way.
J -
Yeah. Which is what Charlotte Mason talks about all the time. That science. Education is a science of relations, right? And so they're making connections between different mathematical concepts, which is what you want, right? But, when they don't have that broad overview, and they're just focusing on this one skill, on a piece of paper, and they're doing it this one way, they can't make those connections.
R -
Right. Or, we're forcing them to do it one way, which, you know, isn't what we need to be doing anymore.
J -
Well, I had to think, that wasn't the way kids used to learn how to do mathematics. It was really using these natural forms and using real objects in their house. And, cooking, and making things out of wood, and like, practical skills that we don't use anymore. So then we had to kind of come up with these arbitrary plastic devices to teach those same concepts they would have got at the home, working with the family on a regular basis, picked up naturally, kind of, yeah.
R -
Right.
J -
Today's episode is brought to you by A Gentle Feast. A Gentle Feast is a complete curriculum for grades one through twelve that is family centered, inspired by Ms. Mason's programs and philosophy, and rooted in books, beauty, and Biblical truth. You can find out how smooth and easy days are closer than you think at AGentleFeast.com.
How would help parents who are kind of intimidated when it comes to teaching math? Or maybe just don't remember the stuff themselves?
R -
Yeah, well, you know, this was a hard question. I...and we kinda touched upon it. First of all, we have to really think about how we learned math and how we could maybe have changed it. How we could have made it better for ourselves. And what we want for our own children. There is some element, I do suggest sometimes, that parents can go back and review, especially as the grades get higher, before they, you know, are working with their own child on...and see some of maybe the newer ways of... and have an open mind. I know it gets a lot of...there's a lot of bad rap about some of those ‘new math’, but they're not necessarily new. Some of them are like, like, for example, my son loves to multiply using the, now I can't remember...
J -
The matrix?
R -
Yeah. Not matrix. Lattice. The Lattice.
J -
Lattice. Yes.
R -
I... with the lattice method, which is like a grid, and there's like diagonals, and they multiply across the diagonal, from multidigit multiplication. But that's not a new method. That's, you know, and lots of people have been using for years. It's very popular in Egypt. And that's his preferred method. You know, I showed him many different methods, and that was the one that stuck and made the most sense to him, and it's efficient for him. And that's fine. I don't love it. I think it's cool.
J -
Yes.
R -
Not what I chose, but it's not what I learned when I used the traditional method because that's what I was drilled into pieces. So having an open mind about that kinda thing, and even just presenting different ways, or asking him to come up with a different way can go a long way. And being willing to learn alongside your child, like. You know, I wish, as a teacher, I learned all these newer ways to teach, so things, and I was like, oh, I wish I had learned math this way, cause it makes so much more sense and it's so much more flexible. And it...getting dinged because I didn't line up my numbers technically right. So, I got the wrong answer....asking students... You know.
So, have an open mind, is one. Be willing to learn along with your student. Don't be afraid to review the little concepts. Along the way, there's a lot of really good resources out there now, with the internet and you can really just look anything... right?
So, that's a good way to do it. And...
J -
I think that's a really good point, that, you know, and I think that for myself too, trying to teach this way is being willing to just play with the numbers and play with the ideas in the concepts. And how much we...I'm learning with them. Like, oh my goodness, this makes total sense. I had no idea. Like, I just, totally learned that and, to divide fractions on a piece of paper. And my teacher's like, here's how ya do it. And...I can't even remember, do you inverse the one and then you...I don't even remember.
But anyway. You know, it was like, this very formula, like, here ya go, here's the answer, and I just did it. I mean, I had no idea why we got that answer or how, or you know, like...and I think a lot of us come from that background, and so, when you take the chances and start doing it with your kids, you're like, oh, that's how that works! Like...
R -
Oh, yes. I actually just finished writing fractions for fifth grade, and it was a huge undertaking for me, like, mentally, to be...to wrap my head, why we, you know, multiply by the reciprocal to divide. And I could prove it mathematically and on paper, but to like really show where that was coming from, you know, and how to show fractions and dividing, in a more visual or hands-on way, it was...I had to really dig deep. And I found a lot of educators online that didn't know either.
J -
Right? It's this mysterious concept. Where does it come from?
R -
Yeah!
J -
Yeah.
R -
A lot of digging. So that was...but you have to be...and I'm not suggesting that parents go through that much...
J -
That why...that's what you, we do it for us. Yes. Exactly.
R -
Yeah, yeah. And I've done it. But, you know, and just, in having your child explain how they're doing it, and, or how they're solving it. Or solving it together. Or trying things out. Making it playful. Be like, I don't know if this...
J -
Yeah.
R -
Let's try this, you know.
J -
Yeah.
R -
Like, the answer... it's okay to model that. You're modeling performing.
J -
Yeah. Yeah, yes.
R -
You might...you are, you know, that it's only about getting the right answer, because math isn't only about getting the right answer. You know, it's computing and problem solving and being flexible. The answer's just one element, so.
J -
Yes. And I think one of the things I really like about your approach, and Charlotte Mason talks about that too, is explaining or demonstrating the concept before moving to abstract written work, you know? Actually showing the why behind the how. But, she talks about this with the whole philosophy that there has to be a captivating idea. that ideas are what students cling to. It motivates them. It develops the habit of attention cause they want to understand it, right? And so when I show you something on a piece of paper, here's how you multiply fractions. Like, that's not exciting or interesting. There's no idea there, right? But when I get you a real-world problem, I have this pan of brownies and we need to have...there's this many people who now need brownies. How do we get everybody a piece of brownie? Like, that is a captivating idea.
She says...this is from A Philosophy of Education, the last books. But, it says, mathematics depend upon the teacher rather than upon the textbook, and few subjects are worse taught. We all say amen, because I'm sure we don't remember really bad math teachers. Usually because teachers have seldom time to give the inspiring idea what Coleridge calls the captain ideas which quicken the imagination. How living would geometry become in the light of discoveries of Euclid that said, Greek math...but she says, to sum up mathematics are a necessary part of every man's education. They must be taught by those who know, but they may not engross the time and attention of the scholar in such a wise shut out the other subjects. So she really does say, it's a balance here. And I think, sometimes math can really take up a lot of time. Like, some of the math curriculums that I've used have been around or seen...I mean, it's an hour's worth of math problems that one child has to do, you know? And then, you don't have time to go outside and have nature study, and you know, you don't have time to read all these great living books because your whole day was spent doing math. It has to be that balance.
But, that, you know, again, we have to have that captivating idea and, mathematics is something we do in every subject, to make it living, you know?
R -
You know, in a lot of studies now, too, that you shouldn't have kids doing ten, twenty, thirty math problems a day, over and over. That is a waste of time. You know, you can just do a couple problems, or you can go outside and do those problems in chalk. Or...
J -
Yeah. Right.
R -
You know, do a scavenger hunt and then solve those problems. But, going back to, like, relating it to real life, there's a...I know we talked a lot about like, using materials and stuff with outdoor math. But there's a lot of math in nature that we never learned as kids. But we just didn't know, like the geometry of when we looked at flowers. There's all kinds of geometrical shapes. There's so much multiplication and things that grow in groups. Like, apple blossoms have five petals. So, it really lends itself to multiplication...
J -
Is that why they have five seeds inside of an apple? Or something?
R -
I don't know if that's related, but that's another way.
J -
That's...yeah. I just remembered that from teaching kindergarten. We would cut em in half and they're like, oh, there's a star inside the apple!
R -
Yeah, so...but it lends to like, multiplication, like, have your, you know, six flowers, like five petals. How many petals do we have? Or, we've got to grow in pairs, right along... or there's you know, branching lines and fractals and all kinds of things that you didn't even know are, but when you start looking closely, especially if you're doing nature study, you can have them do this or point out, or take a little tangent, you know? Like wow, let's look closely at this flower, and like, see what's going on here. And what shape are their petals making? They often make like, pentagrams or hexagrams. Like irises are hexagons. It's amazing the geometry of like, a dandelion. The seed part makes a sphere. It's really beautiful if you look at it real closely. There's a lot of math there.
J -
Wow, that's really neat. Yeah. I never even thought about that. But yeah, and like, what she says about even nature study, that once you train your eye to see, right? And you start to see it all the time. I think you, it's a training, a habit, that you have to develop, but then you see it in math too. And I love that it's kind of bringing in multiple subjects too, as well, you know? So, it does save you time, like, you know, cause it's kinda like, oh my goodness, we have to go outside and get these natural objects and you know, what are we gonna put that in, and like...no, like, you're also bringing in your nature study, and you can do this on your nature walk, and... one of us, as you talked about, like, it was, I believe with measuring? Like in your neighborhood, right?
R -
Yeah.
J -
And I was thinking...distance, or...
R -
Oh! Like, yeah, so, I think this is what you're talking about. This could be what you're talking about. So, one of the things I love to play with tires and I love to measure distance, so if we're walking, you know, we have these things called smartphones, cause one day we were walking, my son and I, and he's like, how far is a mile? Like, have we done a mile yet? I'm like, I don't know. From the bottom of our driveway, down the road, until we've walked a mile, you know? And we kept checking the phone...
J -
Yeah.
R -
And it tells you, and then we would have this, you know, you have a...your tablet has like a personal reference, of how long a mile is. I know a mile is from my mailbox down to this neighbor's house, or the bend in the road, or whatever. And that kinda sticks with them for the rest of their life. It's kind of like how we know...a lot of people measure a yard from the tip of their nose...
J -
Yes. I learned that.
R -
??? use that...that we use, right? So, if you know about a mile on your road...and you can also time how long it takes you. And kids love to kind of expand on that, well like, if it took me fifteen minutes to walk that mile, you know, how long would it take me...
J -
To walk to grandma's house, yeah.
R -
Or, the zoo. Or go to the beach, which is like, six hundred miles away. If you walked, you know, but that's like, it's up in the math, right? ??? You could do it in your head with easy numbers. It's about 20 minutes, so I can multiply that by six hundred, you know?
J -
Yeah.
R -
...idea, and you're estimating. There's just so much math in that conversation.
J -
Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure.
R -
So, I'm gonna walk. So, and you're outside. So you've got that.
J -
yeah, I really like that, cause she actually incorporates that in her lessons. She calls it outdoor geography, but it's, you know, teaching them, how many paces is our yard? And yeah, and the distance, and she even has a lesson where she did that with the planets, and like, pacing out, okay, this...
R -
I've seen that. Yes.
J -
Yeah. This would be the relative... this many steps, it goes the relative distance in space, and they would have like a pea for earth, and a golf ball for Jupiter, I don't know. But, different shaped objects for the different planets, and stuff, you know, which is cool. But, bringing those outdoor geography lessons that she incorporates, and then, it's teaching so many math skills as well. So, I like that you have that overlap in your curriculum as well.
So, what benefits have you seen of doing this kind of mathematics in your own children, or from customers just in general?
R -
Yeah. So, my children, my youngest, this is how he learns. He has to do hands-on. He has to do real life. And he needs a lot of repetition. So, I...it's perfect for that kind of kid, for sure. I get a lot of parents that their, you know their kids just hate workbooks. They can't sit still, they can't...it's just painful to do math. But when they go outside and they kind of integrate some of these things into their walks, or into their sandbox, or mud pit. You know, it becomes so much easier to do and to kinda check off math for the day, right? I'm all about checking my boxes or just seeing, like, I gotta do something math, we have to do something writing. You know. And I don't...who wants to fight about it? So to make it a little more fun and easier, I like to do things that, like you were saying, how you kinda combine, like, you know, and to combine my science and something else, you know. Do that, then you're doing really good.
J -
Yeah. Yeah, I get the gold star for mom for the day. For sure.
R -
Yeah. Yeah. You know. It's, it can really help kids, and games are really great, instead of worksheets, because, kids don't realize how much math they're doing when they're playing a game. Anything with two dice has addition. We don't really realize that. So, but they're gonna be doing way more problems, when you were talking about, you know, thirty problems that are...
J -
Yeah. Yes.
R -
We're done, in a game, and they don't even know. So, I get a lot of feedback like that. A lot of people that have kids that are just really visual learners that need to see and touch and do to understand. That kinda thing. Cause that have a really interesting studies about, they don't want people to get overwhelmed. Do everything outside...I could never do that because of everything has to be outside. It sounds like so much work. But there were some interesting studies done in schools, where they just...all they did was took the same lesson and they went outside and the did the exact same lesson outside, and they all saw a huge gain in engagement and attention, just from the change of location. And the best part was that, even if with just that small change, that that effect carried over into the next lesson. So, it's kinda like a two for one, where even if all you can manage is to take your book, your read aloud, or whatever, outside, you can still benefit from being from that change of, like, location, and being outdoors. Well, even if you go back inside, you know? So, even if you're doing, like, a very small unplanned, like, just very basic, just moving your location, and doing it outside. You'll still get a lot of benefit. And that doesn't take a lot of extra work or planning, you know?
J -
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I really, that's great. That's really neat to hear. Yeah, we...most of the time, like, today, I try to do, like, mental math, or math, you know, facts, outside. On the swing or on a trampoline, so they're getting that bilateral stimulation at the same time that I'm asking them to do a math problem, you know? So, you know, exploring the concepts and doing those hands-on things, but, you know, still getting them used to doing it quickly in their head, kind of thing. You know, there's seven sheep on this hill, and four cows. How many animals are on the hill? You know? Stuff like that. But, getting them to do it quicker, and not always have to use the concrete, you know, once they get used to it. And I don't know if that's something that you encourage or use, but yeah, just, it makes such a difference to have them running and skipping and jumping, while they're doing those things.
R -
Yeah. And I think, I mean, that's one of the things that makes the benefits of going outside, is this, you know, kids are allowed to move. Even if it is in your own house, like, you know, there's like...
J -
Yeah.
R -
Sometimes like with your own...it's just like, oh my gosh, can you just stand here and do this?
J -
Yeah.
R -
You don't say that, right? You're like, you, it just, it's a change. It's just a natural, different expectation. They can be louder, right? Even though, you know, I have a pretty high tolerance, after a while, two boys, in a house, especially my youngest. He's' kind of like, with those, either gotta move, or he's gotta, like, he can't move when he's...
J -
Yes. Oh, yes.
R -
It's like a river...
J -
Oh my gosh, do we have the same child? Mine is sound effect ninja noises. I was like, you are gonna be the movie person to make those sound effects, like, for three days, in a car trip to Colorado. Making sound effects. Unbelievable.
R -
Yes. Well, I mean, I have a limit, so when I'm not...it's not, you know, there's no room for that kinda stuff. And so that kind of thing is what makes it...it's part of what makes that...going outside and doing things better, right? For kids like them.
J -
Yes, For sure. And I had Ginny Yurich on the podcast...it hasn't aired yet. Well, it might air before...I can't remember if it airs before or after yours is gonna air. But, from A Thousand Hours Outside.
R -
yes.
J -
But, yeah, just, all the studies that show the, what it does to your brain, being outside. Even if, yeah, you might not be doing the math concept outside, but just being outside in general, makes such a huge difference. But then, add the math on top of it, well, then, it's like a double whammy, yeah.
R -
Right. It's like that study, just going outside, it really infects...you know, it lasts. And it overlaps, so. Yeah. No. And it's, I love her, A Thousand Hours Outside, because it just shows, or the...there's that, Balanced and Barefoot book about...written by an occupational therapist. It's an amazing book. But she really talks about how our kids spend way too much time inside, and like, the recommended time for kids to be outside when they're under six is like six hours a day. And, yeah, our kids are in kindergarten, working all day inside. And that was definitely a factor when my youngest was like, you know, moving from preschool, right, I think he was getting occupational therapy and I was like, how much outside time do they get here? And she's like yeah, they get like twenty minutes. I'm like, twenty minutes? Oh my goodness!
J -
Yeah.
R -
He wants to move...
J -
Yeah.
R -
Oh, that would just be bad.
J -
Yeah.
R -
Yes. Even older kids, it's like three hours.
J -
Okay.
R -
Like for all... they recommend three hours a day. So.
J -
Wow. Yeah. We definitely missed the people that don't get that, or even close. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you talked with us a little bit, but how is doing math outside and whether your curriculum or some other way that you're doing it, with natural materials, how does that differ from, you know, kinda the traditional math of worksheets and workbooks and those kind of things? Or do you bring those in at all? Like seat work, and...
R -
I don't. I feel like if people want a workbook, it's so easy. There's so many workbooks out there.
J -
Oh my gosh, yeah. Google. Like, yeah. Fifty-five thousand worksheets. Yeah.
R -
Well, in, you can use Wild Math by itself. It's complete. It covers everything your kid's gonna need. And a lot of people do. Especially if you have a student that's a hands-on type of kid. And then some people pair it with a workbook like a traditional workbook, or like, a simpler type workbook that are cheap. We would have, you know, and not that they're like, you don't even have to do it all the time. You could just do it once in a while, or on a day you're short for time, or something like, paling out... But, you know, that kind of thing. These things happen. So, but yeah, you know, outdoor math, I basically just take and I often look at worksheets for ideas, and then I just kinda translate them. Like, how could we do the same concept, like fractions or place value, and do it outside? Or in a hands-on way, or with a game. You know, we kind of default in our society, like, oh, math is worksheets, we gotta do it. It doesn't have to be that way.
J -
Yes. For sure. I agree.
R -
...brainwashed in thinking that.
J -
By curriculum publishers probably. Right.
R -
And as kids get older, yes.
J -
Yeah.
R -
We do need to write things down more. Things become less, you know, concrete and more abstract, and it's...
J -
Cause their brains are able to handle that once they start going through puberty, they can have those abstract concepts on a piece of paper. But they understand why they're doing what they're doing what they're doing. Right.
R -
Right. And in the older grades, I encourage what I call a math notebook or a math journal. That way, after you do the hands-on activity, then maybe you can write it down. What you just did. Or the multiplication problem that you just did. Or, you know, the fraction, draw those fractions and the mud pies that you just added together, and that might be number sentence for an equation that would represent that. So that you...
J -
Oh cool, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.
R -
You can also, always do it with chalk. I love chalk. Chalk is so versatile. You can write...and I don't even...I live in a very rural place, so I won’t have sidewalks or paved driveway, but you can go write chalk on rocks...on the side of the house...that's great. But don't feel like, you know, I mean, it's great if you live and have sidewalks with like, an entire blackboard that you have, right?
J -
Well, chalk is great too, because it builds that fine motor resistance. If your child was in occupational therapy, I'm sure you're familiar with that...
R -
Yes.
J -
...idea right? And...
R -
Especially if it's bigger chalk...
J -
And writing on the walls, yeah.
R -
...you're working on more of that, you know, representational numbers, for the real concepts, so. It's a great, a great alternative too, to workbooks, you know. You can always just take your problems and put ‘em on the outside with chalk.
J -
Yes.
R -
That could be great.
J -
Right. And all the neighbors will be impressed by your driveway full of math problems.
R -
Except I don't have any neighbors that would see it, so that would be fine.
J -
Yeah, especially...even today, when I...put math problems out there for the other neighbors to come by and do when they're really bored.
R -
Oh, now I wish I lived in like, a neighborhood.
J -
Yeah, I've about five thousand children in my cul-de-sac, so that's where my brain's going for the summer. I'm like, oh, we could do, you know, and hopscotch, and all that stuff that, you know, is mathematical.
R -
Yes! Or you could...
J -
What's that? Pardon?
R -
You could make hopscotch even more ‘mathy’ by putting like, math problems in...
J -
Yes. Oh, I like that. Yes, we might have to do that. Do you have, like one or two games that you would recommend that you like for math, that I could put in the show notes? Or?
R -
I do. So, I wrote some down here. Like, I had two different aged kids, so I kinda had some...
J -
That's good. Yeah, to give a variety, yeah.
R -
Yeah. Yeah, so my older kid, who's going to be in sixth grade, really likes the game, Absolute Zero, so it's positive and negative numbers, and you're trying to get to zero. He likes, we recently... and he's like the most...this game isn't, like, the most, like, this is so fun. But, mathy...it's like, hardcore math in a game kind of long, and it really helps practice some of these concepts in a more game-like way. So, there's some...they're called Math Stacks. And they have, like, they have them for all grades, but the ones we ever done are integers. So, I had all kinds of like, negative three plus negative six, parenthesis...you know, multiply by...you know, it was like, facts. But the numbers were easy enough that you could do it in your head. So, it wasn't like, you had to stop and write it down. And they also have ones for algebra, like, one step and two-step algebra. Which had been kind of fun, and they're basically...they have different problems that will equal the same number and you have to, like, match them to the, like, the answers. This one was six, this problem was also six, and you're trying to get the stack of three, and whoever has the lowest stacks wins the game. Yeah. So, those have been fun. I mean, fun. And especially as they get older, it's harder to find things that...
J -
Right.
R -
Like, you go along and you're working on addition facts, and that one...
J -
Yeah. There's no Candy Land for algebra, like, yeah.
R -
Right. Right. So, those are for older...my younger kid's really into a game called Ten Go Fish. And you could play this with regular cards. It's basically making pairs of ten. You know, like three and seven. And, but the cards for Ten Go Fish, if you go on Amazon, for Ten Go Fish, have the Ten frames on them. So, your kid is not quite...memorizing is really hard for my youngest. So, when he forgets, he can look at those ten frames, and so, if he has the eight card, and can see that there's two missing in that ten frame, and that he needs a two. So, and it's also building this, this what we call summarizing skills. When you look at a quantity, like, eight, on a ten frame, and you know that's eight without counting eight, right? That's a super, super important skill. And it kinda...that skill can go up to the point...
J -
Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, once you can, you know... regroup things into ten, it makes addition and subtraction and multiplication so much easier. Yeah.
R -
Stacking really works on that.
J -
Oh, that's great. Yeah.
R -
??? your combinations of ten are arguably the most important addition facts.
J -
Mmmhmm, yep.
R -
So, that's a great game. Sleeping Queens...
J -
Yeah, I did that. I didn't even realize that was a math game.
R -
It is a great math game.
J -
We find out all the time. Oh okay.
R -
And then, there's two books that I really recommend. If you...??? has written a series of books for several, like, early number sense, addition, and subtraction, multiplying division fractions. She has books for games that have games in it, and they all use, like, cards, dice, things you have at home. Nothing fancy. And they have...she has, like, it's a whole book of games.
J -
Okay, cool.
R -
If you wanted...and then, for younger kids, Cathy Fosnot, who's like, an amazing math educator. She has written two, at least two books on games for younger kids. So one of them, my favorite's called Games for Early Number Sense. And, I can send you that. Her books are amazing for really building that number sense foundation for kids.
J -
Which is so important.
R -
...numbers, and sometimes, are deceptively easy. You're like, what when you start watching, and you're, cause you're...I'm usually playing, right, like...I'm the other first grader. But, it's amazing to see their thinking and how that it starts, like, oh, this connection start to be making as they're playing. These deceptively easy games. And they're also, usually, cooperative, because at that age...can sometimes be an issue. Those are my favorite. Those are my favorites.
J -
Yeah, I really, I like that idea a lot. Like...and I see that with...cause I used to be a reading tutor and I see that a lot with young kids, with, like, if they don't have that foundational phonemic awareness, trying to teach them to read is extremely difficult. And the kids that come in already being able to rhyme and segment, like, they pick it up so much faster, and it's the same with, you know, using those kind of abstract math concepts. If they don't have that foundation number sense, it just makes it so much more difficult, yeah. Later on.
R -
It's like that summarizing thing. If you're still counting...learning to add is kind of like, not worth it for me. I have to count each one for every single time, if I'm adding nine plus four, and I have to count out all of the nine and all of the four. You know, it's so inefficient and it just shows that they don't have those contacts and that you shouldn't be moving on. And I always say, in my kindergarten, please, don't rush to addition and subtraction.
J -
Yes. Oh my gosh, yes.
R -
Factors on counting, because you think your kid can count, because counting, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten...with reciting the numbers. It doesn't mean...ask them to tell you what a ten and a two means in a twelve.
J -
Or looks like. Yeah.
R -
Guarantee...they have no idea. And that just shows that you are not ready to move on. So, I get a lot of emails about like, oh, my kid can add this and this and this. How did they memorize it? You know, like, I have to kind of back people up cause it's like...my kid can count to a hundred. And you know... great. Well, we do want kids to count to a hundred. But, you know, if you ask them what fifty-five was, could they explain it to you?
J -
Yeah. That's a great point. Well, thank you so much, this has been so helpful. And I'm so...I just think what you're doing is great. I mean, it's really needed, and...yeah. Just, fun, fun, way to teach math, but also in a way that just so fits in with ??? about using the concrete before the abstract, about having so many hours outside every day. By giving them the captivating idea before they work through a problem and getting them interested and excited about math. This is such a valuable skill in itself, right, or? Hurdle sometimes.
R -
Yes.
J -
But, who doesn't wanna make mud pies or play with sticks, right? That doesn't take a whole lot of motivation, like, if you do this, I'll give you a pack of M&Ms. Like, you don't have to do that when you're doing these kind of outside things, right?
R -
Exactly. Exactly. And it makes it more enjoyable for the kid. It makes their attitude towards math so much better when it's more enjoyable.
J -
And more enjoyable for you too, cause, I don't like pulling my kid's teeth out to get them to do stuff, like...
R -
Right? Exactly. For sure. Well, thank you for having me on. I had a great time.
J -
Yeah. Oh, yes. Do you have a Charlotte Mason quote that you would like to share about math?
R -
I do. And of course, this is mine, right? Never be within doors when you can be outside.
J -
Yes.
R -
...right?
J -
You should put that on your shirt, on shirts, yes. Yes. For sure. Yeah, well thank you so much. It was great to talk to you. And, where can people get in touch with you?
R -
So, I am on Instagram and Facebook at Wild Math Curriculum. Or you can find me on my website at WildMathCurriculum.com and I post lots of things about what we're doing in math, or ideas from math, or what we're just doing in our general homeschooling adventures.
J -
Well, great. Thanks so much.
R -
Yeah. Thank you.
J -
Thank you for joining us today on the Charlotte Mason Show. I'm your host, Julie Ross, and I would love to meet you in person. All of the Great Homeschool Conventions have been rescheduled to 2021. Go to GreatHomeschoolConventions.com to find a convention near you. But you don't have to wait until 2021 to experience the amazing speakers and vendors at the Great Homeschool Conventions. They now offer an online convention that you can find on GreatHomeschoolConventions.com.
Also, if you would like the show notes for today's episode, go to Homeschooling.mom. If you would take a moment to subscribe to this podcast in iTunes and leave a review, I would greatly appreciate it. It helps get the word out about this podcast to our audience. Thanks for joining me today. Until next time, maybe your home be filled with books, beauty, and Biblical truth.
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